My Prayers = Answered

7 Nov 2006 - 6:26pm
7 years ago
17 replies
460 reads
Dan Saffer
2003

If it's true, you are no longer seeing

[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
material.]

at the top of every message on this mailing list. Thank you, IxDA Board.

Please continue to trim your messages anyway. :) This is a trial
period to see how painful this becomes (or not) for digest readers.

Dan

Comments

8 Nov 2006 - 12:17am
Oleh Kovalchuke
2006

Incidentally, your message illustrates the idea for better placement of that
plea to trim messages.

To be noticed the request has to be disruptive. It is easy to tune it out at
the top (at the edge) of the message. It is harder to do so if the notice is
placed in the body of the message after the first paragraph - precisely
where you put it (with brackets of course).

The additional (and important to many) benefit of placing the reminder in
the middle of the message would be that preview of the first line of the
message in gmail becomes available.

It is altogether different matter, of course, if the reminder is needed at
all. Personally, I do not miss the it. RIP.

--
Oleh Kovalchuke
Interaction Design is Design of Time
http://www.tangospring.com/IxDtopicWhatIsInteractionDesign.htm

On 11/7/06, Dan Saffer <dan at odannyboy.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> If it's true, you are no longer seeing
>
> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
> material.]
>
> at the top of every message on this mailing list. Thank you, IxDA Board.
>
> Please continue to trim your messages anyway. :) This is a trial
> period to see how painful this becomes (or not) for digest readers.
>
> Dan
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixda.org
> List Guidelines ............ http://listguide.ixda.org/
> List Help .................. http://listhelp.ixda.org/
> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://subscription-options.ixda.org/
> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixda.org/
> Questions .................. lists at ixda.org
> Home ....................... http://ixda.org/
> Resource Library ........... http://resources.ixda.org
>

8 Nov 2006 - 12:30am
Christian Crumlish
2006

> It is altogether different matter, of course, if the reminder
> is needed at all. Personally, I do not miss the it. RIP.

And yet you included Dan's entire message quoted below your own, including the entire automatic list footer, which was then repeated when the list appended it again!

Not trying to single you out personally, but that's what the annoying message was for: to remind us to trim the unnecessary repetitions, for the sake of the digesters.

Christian Crumlish
Department of Nitpicking

8 Nov 2006 - 1:40am
Eric Scheid
2006

On 8/11/06 4:30 PM, "Christian Crumlish" <CCrumlish at extractable.com> wrote:

>> It is altogether different matter, of course, if the reminder
>> is needed at all. Personally, I do not miss the it. RIP.
>
> And yet you included Dan's entire message quoted below your own, including the
> entire automatic list footer, which was then repeated when the list appended
> it again!
>
> Not trying to single you out personally, but that's what the annoying message
> was for: to remind us to trim the unnecessary repetitions, for the sake of the
> digesters.

Perhaps the list could be set up to reject any message containing the string
"Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!", with a response of
"please trim [etc]".

e.

8 Nov 2006 - 2:32am
stauciuc
2006

I can imagine the frustration for gmail users (myself included) when trying
to use the list with that setting...To have to send almost every mail again
(at least in the beggining) because you forgot to trim those lines..And
considering the fact that the lines are added by the list itself, I would
see it a biy rude on part of the list to make the user clean-up after the
list.

Personally, I started as a digest user and moved to gmail because I found
the list very hard to use (especially replying) in digest mode. I think it
works great in gmail - all the irrelevant quotes are hidden (that's probably
also the reason why we tend to forget about them) The threading is also
extremely helpful, and I consider it much more efficient than having to
figure out the threading yourself in the digest mode.

It would be interesting to know how many gmailers and how many digesters
there are. You are designing for your primary persona first, after all ;)

Sebi

On 11/8/06, Eric Scheid <eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au> wrote:
>
> On 8/11/06 4:30 PM, "Christian Crumlish" <CCrumlish at extractable.com>
> wrote:
>
> >> It is altogether different matter, of course, if the reminder
> >> is needed at all. Personally, I do not miss the it. RIP.
> >
> > And yet you included Dan's entire message quoted below your own,
> including the
> > entire automatic list footer, which was then repeated when the list
> appended
> > it again!
> >
> > Not trying to single you out personally, but that's what the annoying
> message
> > was for: to remind us to trim the unnecessary repetitions, for the sake
> of the
> > digesters.
>
> Perhaps the list could be set up to reject any message containing the
> string
> "Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!", with a response
> of
> "please trim [etc]".
>
> e.
>
> ________________________________________________________________
>
>

--
Sergiu Sebastian Tauciuc
http://www.sergiutauciuc.ro/en/

8 Nov 2006 - 4:58am
Dave Malouf
2005

> -----Original Message-----
> It would be interesting to know how many gmailers and how
> many digesters
> there are. You are designing for your primary persona first,
> after all ;)

Oh! Just b/c I'm up at 4:50a with nothing to do.

The easy part. Mailman allows us to search for a substring within an email
address, so it is easy to search by "gmail.com" for example and find out how
many subscribers have that string in their e-mail address.

Out of a total of 2800 subscribers there are 740 gmail users subscribed.
Let's ignore for the moment that there are people like me who have gmail as
an alternate subscription so they can post from their gmail account but
don't read on it. I have no way of compiling that type of data.

So for ease of numbers lets say that 1/4 of all subscribers use Gmail. I
have to say by itself that is an impressive number and says a ton about
Gmail as a powerful email service making list reading easier.

Now, there is no clean easy way to discover how many people are set to
digest mode, but I did do a sampling and found that about 1/3 of subscribers
are on digest mode.

This means that there are more digest users than Gmail users.

But all that being said, I think the real issue is about effectiveness of
the message, and not the purpose of the message and whether or not we can
instill a culture of compassion and sympathy for others, vs. one where we do
what is just easiest for the individual.

I also think it is a bit problematic to design based on democracy. In that
case you would never have issues of accessibility in your designs, eh?

-- dave

8 Nov 2006 - 6:51am
stauciuc
2006

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the numbers, they are interesting to know!

You are right, we can't design only based on democracy, and the importance
of each member of the list doesn't depend on what he/she uses to read the
list.
I didn't mean in any way that digest readers deserve any less from the list,
my apologies if anyone thought that.(And I emphasize that I said 'design for
your primary persona first', and not 'design only for your primary persona'
)
...I guess these two very strong patterns of use just have to somehow blend
together, so that everyone has the best possible experience

Sebi

I also think it is a bit problematic to design based on democracy. In that
> case you would never have issues of accessibility in your designs, eh?
>
> -- dave
>
>
>
>

P.S. There! Trimmed and everything. I guess this is a very educative thread
then :)
--
Sergiu Sebastian Tauciuc
http://www.sergiutauciuc.ro/en/

9 Nov 2006 - 9:13am
DrWex
2006

I think this is a case of 'blame the victims'. In this case, the
tools are the culprits:
- gmail copied Outlook's incredibly anti-usable method of appending
all messages in inverse chronological order. Users don't have control
over this - at least not on any control I've seen. Gmail tries to
soothe the visual clutter by auto-hiding quoted text behind a
collapsed link.

- the list software blindly appends a ten-line blob of text to every
message, without consideration of whether this would be a useful
feature for the majority of list readers. I haven''t done any user
testing, but informally I'd be inclined to say that this is NOT a
user-desired feature. Once again, users don't have any control over
this behavior.

So now, with the deck stacked against them, why are we blaming the
people (list members) for the bad results of features designed into
the software?

--Alan

9 Nov 2006 - 9:32am
Dave Malouf
2005

> - the list software blindly appends a ten-line blob of text to every
> message, without consideration of whether this would be a useful
> feature for the majority of list readers. I haven''t done any user
> testing, but informally I'd be inclined to say that this is NOT a
> user-desired feature. Once again, users don't have any control over
> this behavior.

Hmm? Not all design is about the user, or all contexts of use at the same
time AND further design has to deal with constraints of the medium.

Ever moderate a list? I get some 20 emails a day that I have to deal with
for this list. Some are just first time posters, others are
unsubscribe/subscription option questions.

I am assuming considering the volatility of the subscriber base on this list
and the announcement list that if we didn't have the information at the
bottom of the list that I would be inundated with many many more requests
for help than I currently get today.

So while, I agree that for the average user the information is not "useful"
in their current context, b/c of the limitations associated with e-mail, it
is the right design for the need.

-- dave

9 Nov 2006 - 11:29am
DrWex
2006

I moderate (*counts*) seven lists at the moment. Mailman is quite a
useful tool. But that doesn't address my point.

On 11/9/06, David Malouf <dave at ixda.org> wrote:
> Hmm? Not all design is about the user, or all contexts of use at the same
> time AND further design has to deal with constraints of the medium.

I find this a curious statement. What is design about, if not the
person? Surely we're not designing for an abstract aesthetic. What I
read you as saying is "the convenience of one person (list moderator)
is more important than the inconvenience of many (list readers)." Is
that, in fact, what you're asserting?

> I am assuming considering the volatility of the subscriber base on this list
> and the announcement list that if we didn't have the information at the
> bottom of the list that I would be inundated with many many more requests
> for help than I currently get today.

I read this as saying "in the absence of data, I'm assuming that my
life would be even more inconvenienced if I didn't inconvenience
everyone else." I'd like to be sure that's really what you intend to
say before I respond to the statement.

--Alan

P.S. In another lifetime I moderated over 300 LISTSERV lists. That
was ugly. Really.

9 Nov 2006 - 11:46am
Esteban Barahona
2006

2006/11/8, Sebi Tauciuc <stauciuc en gmail.com>:

> It would be interesting to know how many gmailers and how many digesters
> there are. You are designing for your primary persona first, after all ;)

Maybe a poll?

I use gmail to read all the mailing lists I'm suscribed... isn't a mailing
list supposed to be read -by defauly- via e-mail?

9 Nov 2006 - 12:22pm
Thomas Vander Wal
2004

I am on a few listserves that have built the bounce submissions with
default footers into their listserve application. Footer info
triggers mail to be bounced back and trimmed.

I am incredibly happy to have the lead in gone. It makes my
subscription usable in Gmail, unfortunately Gmail trims what you are
quoting so it takes a concerted effort to see that there is quoted
info. But, but this work around is something I am willing to put up
with to have a scanable list.

I have taken IxDA off my list of listserves I may drop in the near future.

All the best,
Thomas

On 11/8/06, Eric Scheid <eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au> wrote:
>
> Perhaps the list could be set up to reject any message containing the string
> "Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!", with a response of
> "please trim [etc]".

9 Nov 2006 - 8:08pm
Eric Scheid
2006

On 10/11/06 4:22 AM, "Thomas Vander Wal" <vanderwal at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am on a few listserves that have built the bounce submissions with
> default footers into their listserve application. Footer info
> triggers posts to be bounced back and trimmed.

Interesting. What's the consensus feel of the success of that mechanism in
those communities? Is it something they see as a necessary evil, an extreme
inconvenience, or just some minor slap upside the head when one has a
temporary lapse towards inconsiderateness? (ignoring for the moment the
question of every list community being different)

e.

9 Nov 2006 - 8:06pm
Eric Scheid
2006

On 10/11/06 3:29 AM, "Alan Wexelblat" <awexelblat at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/9/06, David Malouf <dave at ixda.org> wrote:
>> Hmm? Not all design is about the user, or all contexts of use at the same
>> time AND further design has to deal with constraints of the medium.
>
> I find this a curious statement. What is design about, if not the
> person? Surely we're not designing for an abstract aesthetic. What I
> read you as saying is "the convenience of one person (list moderator)
> is more important than the inconvenience of many (list readers)." Is
> that, in fact, what you're asserting?

Not speaking for David, but I read it as meaning the entity that should get
priority is the *group*, and by group I mean the community. Not the
aggregation of individuals, but the group as a group, with group dynamics,
social constructs, the sense of their being a community vs the sense of just
a crowd of people.

e.

9 Nov 2006 - 6:39pm
cfmdesigns
2004

>From: Alan Wexelblat <awexelblat at gmail.com>
>
>- the list software blindly appends a ten-line blob of text to every
>message, without consideration of whether this would be a useful
>feature for the majority of list readers. I haven''t done any user
>testing, but informally I'd be inclined to say that this is NOT a
>user-desired feature. Once again, users don't have any control over
>this behavior.

Until now, I've never paid attention to the footer content of this list, beyond a glance to see that it had links in it which would presumably include an "unsubscribe" one. I'm happy that it is there because any helpful info is better than no info, and I don't mind/pay attention to the length because I have a fast connection and a large enough screen that it is just a tiny impact.

That said, too much info can be as bad as too little. Looking now at the set of links there, I can't imagine ever needing/wanting to click on more than 2 or 3 of them, and by extension, I doubt most of the links ever get clicked other than as "Hmm, wonder what this link actually goes to". The 10-line block could probably be cut in half without any real loss of value.

-- Jim

10 Nov 2006 - 8:59am
Thomas Vander Wal
2004

The 2 large communities kept the un-trimmed auto-bounce for quite a
while (they may still have it, but I know to trim them and I don't
pull them or contribute to them from Gmail so it is easy to notice
untrimmed responses). The other communities stopped it after a couple
weeks.

The large communities saw enough of an improvement to keep the
bouncing turned on for quite some time. It was worth the hassle. The
traffic on these two listserves is between 50 and 100 posts per day.

The one or two others that tried this pulled the bouncing after a week
or so. The memberships were smaller and those that were not trimming
were made aware of the problems and mended their ways. The bouncing
on one of the lists gets turned on every year or 18 months for a week
or so when trimming gets out of hand. The two smaller lists average 20
to 30 posts per week at best, but when there is a hot topic the
digests and threads get nasty.

ATB,
Thomas

On 11/9/06, Eric Scheid <eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au> wrote:
> On 10/11/06 4:22 AM, "Thomas Vander Wal" <vanderwal at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I am on a few listserves that have built the bounce submissions with
> > default footers into their listserve application. Footer info
> > triggers posts to be bounced back and trimmed.
>
> Interesting. What's the consensus feel of the success of that mechanism in
> those communities? Is it something they see as a necessary evil, an extreme
> inconvenience, or just some minor slap upside the head when one has a
> temporary lapse towards inconsiderateness? (ignoring for the moment the
> question of every list community being different)

>

10 Nov 2006 - 11:23am
Dave Malouf
2005

How do you turn that on in mailman? I'd love to do this. I never even knew it was an option.

Dave

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Thomas Vander Wal" <vanderwal at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 08:59:39
To:"Eric Scheid" <eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au>
Cc:IxD <discuss at ixda.org>
Subject: Re: [IxDA Discuss] My Prayers = Answered

The 2 large communities kept the un-trimmed auto-bounce for quite a
while (they may still have it, but I know to trim them and I don't
pull them or contribute to them from Gmail so it is easy to notice
untrimmed responses). The other communities stopped it after a couple
weeks.

The large communities saw enough of an improvement to keep the
bouncing turned on for quite some time. It was worth the hassle. The
traffic on these two listserves is between 50 and 100 posts per day.

The one or two others that tried this pulled the bouncing after a week
or so. The memberships were smaller and those that were not trimming
were made aware of the problems and mended their ways. The bouncing
on one of the lists gets turned on every year or 18 months for a week
or so when trimming gets out of hand. The two smaller lists average 20
to 30 posts per week at best, but when there is a hot topic the
digests and threads get nasty.

ATB,
Thomas

On 11/9/06, Eric Scheid <eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au> wrote:
> On 10/11/06 4:22 AM, "Thomas Vander Wal" <vanderwal at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I am on a few listserves that have built the bounce submissions with
> > default footers into their listserve application. Footer info
> > triggers posts to be bounced back and trimmed.
>
> Interesting. What's the consensus feel of the success of that mechanism in
> those communities? Is it something they see as a necessary evil, an extreme
> inconvenience, or just some minor slap upside the head when one has a
> temporary lapse towards inconsiderateness? (ignoring for the moment the
> question of every list community being different)

>
________________________________________________________________
Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
To post to this list ....... discuss at ixda.org
List Guidelines ............ http://listguide.ixda.org/
List Help .................. http://listhelp.ixda.org/
(Un)Subscription Options ... http://subscription-options.ixda.org/
Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixda.org/
Questions .................. lists at ixda.org
Home ....................... http://ixda.org/
Resource Library ........... http://resources.ixda.org

10 Nov 2006 - 11:58am
Cwodtke
2004

> Is it something they see as a necessary evil, an extreme
> inconvenience, or just some minor slap upside the head when one has a
> temporary lapse towards inconsiderateness?

personally, as the latest criminal, I'd take it as the latter, and
welcome it.

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