Re: multi-select choosers of complex large sets.

26 Apr 2004 - 6:51pm
10 years ago
5 replies
789 reads
Dave Malouf
2005

Hi Andrew,

A great example would be choosing addresses in Outlook.
If you go to the "to" chooser, it has the means for a user to easily select
from your personal database of addresses, but what is added besides the
user's name is more information to make sure it is the right person. In this
case that added metadata isn't always necessary but it can certainly help.
In my situations it is often a requirement. I.e. select files. If I don't
have other metadata like folder path or taxonomy info then I can't tell the
difference between objects with the same name.

The problems that arise in a web-app are:
1. latency w/ the information
2. ability to have selection w/o checkboxes on both sides of the selection

In my case I actually pass further data at the point of selection which to
me is nutz but is at this point a weird user requirement.

-- dave

-----Original Message-----
From:
discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com
[mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.
com] On Behalf Of Andrew Otwell
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 6:44 PM
To: discuss-interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com
Subject: [ID Discuss] Re: Discuss-interactiondesigners.com Digest, Vol
7,Issue 25

>
>
>A problem that I have often found in web-based applications is around the
>selection (multi-select) from a large data set that requires the display of
>multiple layers of meta-data in order to allow the user to make a proper
and
>informed selection.
>
Can you point to an example in desktop or web apps? I'm not sure I'm
clear on what you're asking for.

andrew
_______________________________________________
Interaction Design Discussion List
discuss at interactiondesigners.com
--
to change your options (unsubscribe or set digest):
http://discuss.interactiondesigners.com
--
Questions: lists at interactiondesigners.com
--
Announcement Online List (discussion list members get announcements already)
http://interactiondesigners.com/announceList/
--
http://interactiondesigners.com/

Comments

27 Apr 2004 - 9:51am
Mark Canlas
2003

I kinda see the problem, but I don't understand what you cited as problems
with a web-app. Could you define what you mean by "latency with the
information" and "ability to have selection..."

Mark Canlas
http://www.htmlism.com/mark/
> -----Original Message-----
> From: discuss-interactiondesigners.com-
> bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com [mailto:discuss-
> interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com] On Behalf
> Of David Heller
> Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 19:51
> To: 'Andrew Otwell'; discuss-
> interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com
> Subject: [ID Discuss] Re: multi-select choosers of complex large sets.
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
> A great example would be choosing addresses in Outlook.
> If you go to the "to" chooser, it has the means for a user to easily
> select
> from your personal database of addresses, but what is added besides the
> user's name is more information to make sure it is the right person. In
> this
> case that added metadata isn't always necessary but it can certainly help.
> In my situations it is often a requirement. I.e. select files. If I don't
> have other metadata like folder path or taxonomy info then I can't tell
> the
> difference between objects with the same name.
>
> The problems that arise in a web-app are:
> 1. latency w/ the information
> 2. ability to have selection w/o checkboxes on both sides of the selection
>
> In my case I actually pass further data at the point of selection which to
> me is nutz but is at this point a weird user requirement.
>
> -- dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com
> [mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-
> bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.
> com] On Behalf Of Andrew Otwell
> Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 6:44 PM
> To: discuss-interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com
> Subject: [ID Discuss] Re: Discuss-interactiondesigners.com Digest, Vol
> 7,Issue 25
>
> >
> >
> >A problem that I have often found in web-based applications is around the
> >selection (multi-select) from a large data set that requires the display
> of
> >multiple layers of meta-data in order to allow the user to make a proper
> and
> >informed selection.
> >
> Can you point to an example in desktop or web apps? I'm not sure I'm
> clear on what you're asking for.
>
> andrew
> _______________________________________________
> Interaction Design Discussion List
> discuss at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> to change your options (unsubscribe or set digest):
> http://discuss.interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Questions: lists at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Announcement Online List (discussion list members get announcements
> already)
> http://interactiondesigners.com/announceList/
> --
> http://interactiondesigners.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Interaction Design Discussion List
> discuss at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> to change your options (unsubscribe or set digest):
> http://discuss.interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Questions: lists at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Announcement Online List (discussion list members get announcements
> already)
> http://interactiondesigners.com/announceList/
> --
> http://interactiondesigners.com/

27 Apr 2004 - 10:15am
Dave Malouf
2005

"latency with the information"
The data set and the GUI interaction reside on two different machines and
thus there is a latency in the data, a latency in how to interact with it.
In Outlook the database of contacts resides on the machine where I am doing
the address lookup. In a web-app the database resides away from the GUI and
thus manipulating the data in a performing way is often difficult to do in
real time (i.e. searching, or even showing a complete set).

To do the "Outlook Address Lookup Screen" in a web app would be almost
impossible. For this and the other issue I mentioned "ability to have
selection ..."
This issue is that I can click a row in an application and this is
understood as a selection. In the web space this convention gets lost. AND
to make matters worse the app <> web site confusion that many users face
makes it hard for them to accept checkboxes as a selection point, or that
selection point is too small. Further, we have accepted other conventions
such as link to navigate (vs. double click to navigate) in web apps that
make sinle click selection on a row difficult to translate.

Is this starting to help?

-- dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Canlas [mailto:mark at htmlism.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 10:52 AM
To: 'David Heller'
Cc: discuss-interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com
Subject: RE: [ID Discuss] Re: multi-select choosers of complex large sets.

I kinda see the problem, but I don't understand what you cited as problems
with a web-app. Could you define what you mean by "latency with the
information" and "ability to have selection..."

Mark Canlas
http://www.htmlism.com/mark/
> -----Original Message-----
> From: discuss-interactiondesigners.com-
> bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com [mailto:discuss-
> interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com] On
> Behalf Of David Heller
> Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 19:51
> To: 'Andrew Otwell'; discuss-
> interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com
> Subject: [ID Discuss] Re: multi-select choosers of complex large sets.
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
> A great example would be choosing addresses in Outlook.
> If you go to the "to" chooser, it has the means for a user to easily
> select from your personal database of addresses, but what is added
> besides the user's name is more information to make sure it is the
> right person. In this case that added metadata isn't always necessary
> but it can certainly help.
> In my situations it is often a requirement. I.e. select files. If I
> don't have other metadata like folder path or taxonomy info then I
> can't tell the difference between objects with the same name.
>
> The problems that arise in a web-app are:
> 1. latency w/ the information
> 2. ability to have selection w/o checkboxes on both sides of the
> selection
>
> In my case I actually pass further data at the point of selection
> which to me is nutz but is at this point a weird user requirement.
>
> -- dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.co
> m
> [mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-
> bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.
> com] On Behalf Of Andrew Otwell
> Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 6:44 PM
> To: discuss-interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com
> Subject: [ID Discuss] Re: Discuss-interactiondesigners.com Digest, Vol
> 7,Issue 25
>
> >
> >
> >A problem that I have often found in web-based applications is around
> >the selection (multi-select) from a large data set that requires the
> >display
> of
> >multiple layers of meta-data in order to allow the user to make a
> >proper
> and
> >informed selection.
> >
> Can you point to an example in desktop or web apps? I'm not sure I'm
> clear on what you're asking for.
>
> andrew
> _______________________________________________
> Interaction Design Discussion List
> discuss at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> to change your options (unsubscribe or set digest):
> http://discuss.interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Questions: lists at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Announcement Online List (discussion list members get announcements
> already)
> http://interactiondesigners.com/announceList/
> --
> http://interactiondesigners.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Interaction Design Discussion List
> discuss at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> to change your options (unsubscribe or set digest):
> http://discuss.interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Questions: lists at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Announcement Online List (discussion list members get announcements
> already)
> http://interactiondesigners.com/announceList/
> --
> http://interactiondesigners.com/

27 Apr 2004 - 3:01pm
Svoboda, Eric
2004

If I understand your description, I think that (at least) the current
version of Microsoft Webmail's "to" chooser implements the "ability to
have selection"

Eric

-----Original Message-----
From:
discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com
[mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesign
ers.com]On Behalf Of David Heller
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 10:15 AM
To: 'Mark Canlas'
Cc: discuss at interactiondesigners.com
Subject: RE: [ID Discuss] Re: multi-select choosers of complex large
sets.

"latency with the information"
The data set and the GUI interaction reside on two different machines
and
thus there is a latency in the data, a latency in how to interact with
it.
In Outlook the database of contacts resides on the machine where I am
doing
the address lookup. In a web-app the database resides away from the GUI
and
thus manipulating the data in a performing way is often difficult to do
in
real time (i.e. searching, or even showing a complete set).

To do the "Outlook Address Lookup Screen" in a web app would be almost
impossible. For this and the other issue I mentioned "ability to have
selection ..."
This issue is that I can click a row in an application and this is
understood as a selection. In the web space this convention gets lost.
AND
to make matters worse the app <> web site confusion that many users face
makes it hard for them to accept checkboxes as a selection point, or
that
selection point is too small. Further, we have accepted other
conventions
such as link to navigate (vs. double click to navigate) in web apps that
make sinle click selection on a row difficult to translate.

Is this starting to help?

-- dave

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Canlas [mailto:mark at htmlism.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 10:52 AM
To: 'David Heller'
Cc: discuss-interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com
Subject: RE: [ID Discuss] Re: multi-select choosers of complex large
sets.

I kinda see the problem, but I don't understand what you cited as
problems
with a web-app. Could you define what you mean by "latency with the
information" and "ability to have selection..."

Mark Canlas
http://www.htmlism.com/mark/
> -----Original Message-----
> From: discuss-interactiondesigners.com-
> bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com [mailto:discuss-
> interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com] On
> Behalf Of David Heller
> Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 19:51
> To: 'Andrew Otwell'; discuss-
> interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com
> Subject: [ID Discuss] Re: multi-select choosers of complex large sets.
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
> A great example would be choosing addresses in Outlook.
> If you go to the "to" chooser, it has the means for a user to easily
> select from your personal database of addresses, but what is added
> besides the user's name is more information to make sure it is the
> right person. In this case that added metadata isn't always necessary
> but it can certainly help.
> In my situations it is often a requirement. I.e. select files. If I
> don't have other metadata like folder path or taxonomy info then I
> can't tell the difference between objects with the same name.
>
> The problems that arise in a web-app are:
> 1. latency w/ the information
> 2. ability to have selection w/o checkboxes on both sides of the
> selection
>
> In my case I actually pass further data at the point of selection
> which to me is nutz but is at this point a weird user requirement.
>
> -- dave
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.co
> m
> [mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-
> bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.
> com] On Behalf Of Andrew Otwell
> Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 6:44 PM
> To: discuss-interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com
> Subject: [ID Discuss] Re: Discuss-interactiondesigners.com Digest, Vol

> 7,Issue 25
>
> >
> >
> >A problem that I have often found in web-based applications is around

> >the selection (multi-select) from a large data set that requires the
> >display
> of
> >multiple layers of meta-data in order to allow the user to make a
> >proper
> and
> >informed selection.
> >
> Can you point to an example in desktop or web apps? I'm not sure I'm
> clear on what you're asking for.
>
> andrew
> _______________________________________________
> Interaction Design Discussion List
> discuss at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> to change your options (unsubscribe or set digest):
> http://discuss.interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Questions: lists at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Announcement Online List (discussion list members get announcements
> already)
> http://interactiondesigners.com/announceList/
> --
> http://interactiondesigners.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Interaction Design Discussion List
> discuss at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> to change your options (unsubscribe or set digest):
> http://discuss.interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Questions: lists at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Announcement Online List (discussion list members get announcements
> already)
> http://interactiondesigners.com/announceList/
> --
> http://interactiondesigners.com/

_______________________________________________
Interaction Design Discussion List
discuss at interactiondesigners.com
--
to change your options (unsubscribe or set digest):
http://discuss.interactiondesigners.com
--
Questions: lists at interactiondesigners.com
--
Announcement Online List (discussion list members get announcements
already)
http://interactiondesigners.com/announceList/
--
http://interactiondesigners.com/

Confidentiality Warning: This e-mail contains information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, any dissemination, publication or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. The sender does not accept any responsibility for any loss, disruption or damage to your data or computer system that may occur while using data contained in, or transmitted with, this e-mail. If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify us by return e-mail. Thank you.

28 Apr 2004 - 1:04am
pabini
2004

Hi David

Now that we've gotten all the terms defined, what was your original
question? ;-) Just kidding.

You asked:
A problem that I have often found in web-based applications is around the
selection (multi-select) from a large data set that requires the display of
multiple layers of meta-data in order to allow the user to make a proper and
informed selection.

***[PGP] Such data would typically appear in a table populated by data from
a database, with option buttons for single-selection; check boxes for
multiple-selection; buttons for acting on the selection.

It appears that the current set of conventions and standards don't work well
in all circumstances, especially when the selections are made as a
sub-selection for another item (what I have been taught to call a correlated
repeating attribute).

***[PGP] I would be interested to know what you think the conventions and
standards are and how they're deficient. Who in the world made up this term?
It seems to seek to be deliberately obscure. Can you give us an example of
this?

My issues are around making these selections clear in method. Usability
suggests that for whatever reason, building collections w/ checkboxes
doesn't seem to work, for example.

***[PGP] Checkboxes alone certainly don't work for dynamic data sets.
However, they could occur within the context of a table containing a list of
items.

> "latency with the information"
> The data set and the GUI interaction reside on two different machines and
> thus there is a latency in the data, a latency in how to interact with it.
> In Outlook the database of contacts resides on the machine where I am
doing
> the address lookup. In a web-app the database resides away from the GUI
and
> thus manipulating the data in a performing way is often difficult to do in
> real time (i.e. searching, or even showing a complete set).

I've worked on Web apps quite a lot. I think users are accustomed to there
being some latency within that context. I really don't see a problem here.
We search databases all the time on the Web. Often search results are
chunked, showing only a limited number per page, but for data sets of a
reasonable size, I would often rather see all the results on one page. This
should be a user preference.

> To do the "Outlook Address Lookup Screen" in a web app would be almost
> impossible. For this and the other issue I mentioned "ability to have
> selection ..."
> This issue is that I can click a row in an application and this is
> understood as a selection. In the web space this convention gets lost. AND
> to make matters worse the app <> web site confusion that many users face
> makes it hard for them to accept checkboxes as a selection point, or that
> selection point is too small. Further, we have accepted other conventions
> such as link to navigate (vs. double click to navigate) in web apps that
> make sinle click selection on a row difficult to translate.

> I kinda see the problem, but I don't understand what you cited as problems
> with a web-app. Could you define what you mean by "latency with the
> information" and "ability to have selection..."
> > A great example would be choosing addresses in Outlook.
> > If you go to the "to" chooser, it has the means for a user to easily
> > select from your personal database of addresses, but what is added
> > besides the user's name is more information to make sure it is the
> > right person. In this case that added metadata isn't always necessary
> > but it can certainly help.

***[PGP] Good example. You could easily replicate the functionality of the
"To chooser" on the Web though. What do you perceive as the problems?

> > In my situations it is often a requirement. I.e. select files. If I
> > don't have other metadata like folder path or taxonomy info then I
> > can't tell the difference between objects with the same name.
> > The problems that arise in a web-app are:
> > 1. latency w/ the information
> > 2. ability to have selection w/o checkboxes on both sides of the
> > selection
> > In my case I actually pass further data at the point of selection
> > which to me is nutz but is at this point a weird user requirement.

***[PGP] What do you mean by "w/o checkboxes on both sides of the
selection"? On the Web, if you want to view metadata for an item to which a
user is pointing, you could use a remote rollover. What's wrong with using a
checkbox to indicate selection though?

Pabini
________________________________________

Pabini Gabriel-Petit
Principal & User Experience Architect
Spirit Softworks
www.spiritsoftworks.com

28 Apr 2004 - 4:34am
pabini
2004

Eric Svoboda wrote:
If I understand your description, I think that (at least) the current
version of Microsoft Webmail's "to" chooser implements the "ability to
have selection"

The user interface of Microsoft Outlook Web Access is quite close to the
desktop application.

https://webmail2.wbc.edu/exchweb/bin/auth/owalogon.asp?url=https://webmail2.wbc.edu/exchange&reason=0

Pabini Gabriel-Petit

Syndicate content Get the feed