Tablet-based PC's - ?

11 Sep 2004 - 5:22pm
9 years ago
19 replies
561 reads
aschechterman
2004

All,

I'm exploring the purchase of a tablet-based PC for
doing sketching, prototyping, and more. A range of
models are out there such as:

http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/M1400_Centrino_1_1GHz_2G__2x1G___60GB__802_11b_g__Stand__Cover__Pen__6_cell_Battery__Integrated_Fingerprint_Reader__Integrated_Bluetooth__Motion_Pak_SW_w_Microsoft_One_Note/4505-3126_16-31000097.html?tag=coco

Initial impression is the hardware/software technology
is still new (e.g., difficulties in saving free-hand
drawings to other formats? converting? other glitches?
etc.).

Can anyone advise me on this? A good experience with a
certain model(s)? Software? Other impressions?

Feel free to backchannel or post, and I'll summarize
for the group. Thank you in advance for your thoughts!

Andy

==========

Evidence Based Human-Centered Research, Planning and
Strategy for Silicon-based and Carbon-based Products,
Services, Environments and Systems

Andrew Schechterman PhD & Associates, LLC | Since 1985
Littleton, Colorado | USA | 801 473 7592 |
aschechterman @ kualumni org

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Comments

11 Sep 2004 - 11:08pm
Peter Bagnall
2003

Andy,

I've been using an NEC tablet, the versa T400 for about 8 months now,
as it's the target platform for the system I'm designing and building.
The downside of the NEC is the antenna for the wifi can stick up from
the main body of the machine. It's just begging to get broken off. So
far I've not broken one but that's probably partly cause I stuck the
antenna down with double sided sticky tape ;-) Also the NEC has a
Compact Flash slot, the eject button for which has a tendency to pop
out a bit to easily - again a breakage risk. Also the stand that comes
with the NEC is basically useless. I collapses really easily. The
keyboard that comes with this is just a small USB keyboard. Nothing
fancy - but it works fine. But the NEC is only 1kg, which for my
project is really important. So that's what I got.

I reviewed a Motion tablet and they seemed pretty decent. The only
downside for my application was they were a bit heavy, but I'm working
with elderly users, so I doubt that's an issue for you. The docking
system seemed pretty good to, the best of the three machines I checked
out. Not sure about the keyboard with this one.

I also tried a Compaq machine, a slate version (tc1100 I think), but
found that while the undocked machine was ok, the docking station that
came with it was a real pain to attach, as was the keyboard. To dock
first you had to attach the keyboard (which unlike the convertible
models is a separate unit), then dock it - really bad design - and
really heavy too. I personally would steer well clear of this, just on
the basis of the physical design. Also the stylus felt a bit dodgy -
the nib had a tendency to wiggle a bit.

You should bear in mind though that I was looking at machines a little
while ago now, in January, so I imagine the models have changed a bit
since then, hopefully for the better ;-). Also the selection of
machines was a bit thin then! I had a very hard time getting demo
models to try out.

As for saving sketches in standard formats, since they run WinXP tablet
edition, you can run any software you'd run on any other windows
machine. The stylus on the NEC is as capable as a typical Wacom
graphics tablet in terms of pressure sensitivity etc, so using it with
something like Photoshop would be great I'd think. I'm pretty sure
other tablets are also pressure sensitive in the same way. Getting
drawings out of the journal software would be harder, but you can get
the journal reader for WinXP non-tablet edition.

WinXP tablet edition is a superset of WinXP, the handwriting
recognition, and now with XPSP2 some speech recognition too, so there's
no loss of capability there.

The only thing I've found is that while the handwriting recog is pretty
good once you've been using it a while (it adapts to your writing
eventually), I still find I work much faster on a keyboard for text
entry. If that's important for you too I'd recommend you at least try
out one of the convertible models. They are heavier, but might be worth
it, if that's an issue.

Hope that's of some use.

Cheers
--Pete
-------------------------------------------------------------
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding
of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they
are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the
same in any country.
--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

Peter Bagnall - http://people.surfaceeffect.com/pete/

11 Sep 2004 - 11:37pm
Listera
2004

Peter Bagnall:

> Hope that's of some use.

I'm curious; if stand-up use were not an issue, specifically for design
work, what can't you do with a notebook plus a small, inexpensive Wacom that
you can with a TabletPC?

Ziya
Nullius in Verba

12 Sep 2004 - 7:12am
Peter Bagnall
2003

On 12 Sep 2004, at 05:37, Listera wrote:
>> Hope that's of some use.
>
> I'm curious; if stand-up use were not an issue, specifically for design
> work, what can't you do with a notebook plus a small, inexpensive
> Wacom that
> you can with a TabletPC?

Technically, apart from the handwriting recognition, nothing really.
However, being a small Wacom tablet user myself for a long time too I
would say that it's easier to draw on a tablet than the Wacom. I've
tried both systems on my brother, who is a talented artist (but a
novice computer user), and he found the Wacom tablet somewhat
unsatisfying and awkward, and significantly preferred the tablet.
Another member of my family, who's an architect, and also a talented
artist also found the tablet quite usable to draw on, although he
didn't try the wacom out. It would be interesting to see what everyone
else thinks.

Of course, I've not done anything like a formal study on that, but one
of my colleagues has been designing an application for the platform I'm
building, and the users response to that, and the tablet have been very
positive. This has been with older users. I very much doubt whether
they would have been anywhere near os positive about a wacom and laptop
system. The tablet PC has the advantage of being familiar to them, in
that everyone knows how to use a pen! (I'm avoiding using the term
intuitive ;-) ). Writing in one place, and having it appear somewhere
else, is clearly not as good.

In terms of personal preference too, the next laptop buy will certainly
be a convertible laptop/tablet machine. Pretty much everyone else on
the project here who's used them is saying the same thing!

Cheers
--Pete

----------------------------------------------------------
The power of the executive to cast a man into prison without formulating
any charge known to the law, particularly to deny him the judgement of
his peers, is in the highest degree odious, and the foundation of all
totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist."
-Winston Churchill, 1943

Peter Bagnall - http://people.surfaceeffect.com/pete/

12 Sep 2004 - 7:45am
Dave Malouf
2005

The diff between a tablet PC vs. a Wacom tablet and a laptop?

Isn't it about level of separation? When I draw on the wacom, it is like
using a mouse, where I am moving something and have to assume a relationship
between the object I am moving and the screen I am looking at.

When I am using a Tablet PC, I am drawing on object that I'm working with
directly. There is not level of separation that has to be communicated to
the user.

Now, is the cost differential AND the difference in the "quality" of the
total box worth that experience? That's a different question. ;)

-- dave

12 Sep 2004 - 2:53pm
CD Evans
2004

>> I'm curious; if stand-up use were not an issue, specifically for design
>> work, what can't you do with a notebook plus a small, inexpensive
>> Wacom that
>> you can with a TabletPC?

You can encourage a definate lack of RSI!

I've used a tablet on my machine for eight years, as I'm prone to pain from mice. This is one of the numerous reasons why
I find working on company standard equiptment intolerable, which relates to the other thread on personal interfaces....

CD evans

12 Sep 2004 - 4:09pm
Peter Bagnall
2003

On 12 Sep 2004, at 12:53, CD Evans wrote:
> You can encourage a definate lack of RSI!
>
> I've used a tablet on my machine for eight years, as I'm prone to pain
> from mice. This is one of the numerous reasons why
> I find working on company standard equiptment intolerable, which
> relates to the other thread on personal interfaces....

Interesting that you should say that, it's the same reason I started
using a wacom tablet a few years ago. So I'm in favour of tablets for
that reason too, it makes a better pointing device for portable
computers (by which I mean the class of device which includes laptops
and tablet PCs) in particular.

--Pete

----------------------------------------------------------
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
- Benjamin Franklin, 1706 - 1790

Peter Bagnall - http://people.surfaceeffect.com/pete/

12 Sep 2004 - 4:36pm
Kevin Cheng
2004

Ziya said:
I'm curious; if stand-up use were not an issue, specifically for design
work, what can't you do with a notebook plus a small, inexpensive Wacom that
you can with a TabletPC?
--

As Dave mentioned, it's the separation. Learning a wacom is like relearning
a device like the mouse. I had to train myself all over again, practising
drawing basic stick figures before I could get back to normal use. I never
could get used to using it as the main input device though, only drawing.

I now use a Toshiba Portege M200 and love the laptop + tablet because it
lets me have the best of both worlds. I can discuss specific models I
considered and their pros and cons off list. Here I'll quickly talk about
what it's good for and what it's not good for:

Good:
- drawing. Tablet manufacturers seem to NEVER focus on this market in their
advertising. I don't know why. Regardless, I find it great and use it as my
tool for OK/C.

- note taking. IF you are not a 70wpm typist which I am. I end up typing
notes at conferences instead and just popping the pen to draw diagrams at
the same time (without flipping screen over). Many people I know prefer
writing and so this IS a better form for them.

Bad:
- navigating. Remember Fitts's law? That's ireelevant in tablets. In fact
corners are the WORST place for tablets which makes it really aggravating
when apps aren't built specifically for tablets. There needs to be a serious
overhaul in paradigms for this way of working to reach its potential.

- regular surf machine. People think "I'll get a tablet for my living room
web surf machine." Sounds strange but more than one have asked me with that
in mind. There are better, cheaper solutions that are lighter too. You want
a keyboard for typing urls, trust me.

There's lots more I can say but I'll leave it at that for now.

Kevin Cheng (KC)
OK/Cancel: Interface Your Fears
kc at ok-cancel.com
www.ok-cancel.com

12 Sep 2004 - 5:22pm
Listera
2004

Kevin Cheng:

> Learning a wacom is like relearning a device like the mouse.

I've been using a digital tablet for over a decade now, so I can't
personally remember what it was like to pick it up for the first time. But,
for drawing, does TabletPC provide high pointing accuracy, pen angle
control, pen tip replacement for simulating soft/hard surfaces/instruments
or two-handed control of scrolling, modifier keys, macros a la Intuos 3?

Ziya
Nullius in Verba

13 Sep 2004 - 1:53pm
CD Evans
2004

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:36 , 'Kevin Cheng' <kevin at illusiondesigns.net> sent:

>Bad:
>- navigating. Remember Fitts's law? That's ireelevant in tablets. In fact
>corners are the WORST place for tablets which makes it really aggravating
>when apps aren't built specifically for tablets. There needs to be a serious
>overhaul in paradigms for this way of working to reach its potential.
>
>Kevin Cheng (KC)
>OK/Cancel: Interface Your Fears
>kc at ok-cancel.com
>www.ok-cancel.com

I don''t think so. Fitt's works just fine on a mac with a tablet. It's only the certain lack of 'proper edges' within the windows
environment that makes the less grid-oriented movement of the tablet input more inprecise. Mac Fitts.Though with time
you could likely train your hand to jump to the right spot in any interface with any input everytime.

What about the trackpad and trackball, are they ''funner"? Or are they less accurate? I know there's test results, but what do
people actually like overall?

Thanks
CD Evans

13 Sep 2004 - 11:35am
Kevin Cheng
2004

Me:
>Bad:
>- navigating. Remember Fitts's law? That's ireelevant in tablets. In fact
>corners are the WORST place for tablets which makes it really aggravating
>when apps aren't built specifically for tablets. There needs to be a
serious
>overhaul in paradigms for this way of working to reach its potential.

CD Evans said:
>I don''t think so. Fitt's works just fine on a mac with a tablet. It's only
>the certain lack of 'proper edges' within the windows
>environment that makes the less grid-oriented movement of the tablet input
>more inprecise. Mac Fitts.Though with time
>you could likely train your hand to jump to the right spot in any interface
>with any input everytime.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Obviously, larger target areas are still quicker to
acquire but the basic principle of the five easiest points to hit being 1)
where your cursor is and 2-4) where the corners are is false in a tablet PC
(NOT tablet input device because that essentially is still a mouse). Why?
Because the areas are not infinite anymore. I can't wave my pen off the
screen and click, I have to precisely hit the corner. In addition, the
precision for corners on tablet PCs are currently the worst areas. You say
Mac with Tablet so I can only assume you're not referring to Tablet PCs at
all but rather a PC with a peripheral tablet input device (i.e., the
pointing isn't directly on the screen).

I maintain: apps need to be fundamentally designed differently to make the
most use of the tablet PC form factor.

Kevin Cheng (KC)
OK/Cancel: Interface Your Fears
kc at ok-cancel.com
www.ok-cancel.com

13 Sep 2004 - 11:40am
Kevin Cheng
2004

Ziya said:
>personally remember what it was like to pick it up for the first time. But,
>for drawing, does TabletPC provide high pointing accuracy, pen angle
>control, pen tip replacement for simulating soft/hard surfaces/instruments
>or two-handed control of scrolling, modifier keys, macros a la Intuos 3?

This was my complaint about them never marketing to artists. It is quite
difficult to find out from each manufacturer if the levels of pressure
sensitivity each product had and other features you mention.

For the most part, tablet PCs are licensing technology from Wacom and thus,
at a minimum now support a high level of pressure sensitivity (enough that I
couldn't tell the difference between that and my Intuos 2). I never used the
two handed nav in Intuos so I can't comment on that. Accuracy is good enough
for my OK/Cancels - no complaints except around edges at times. I've never
done pen tip replacement for my Intuos (didn't even know you could) but note
that different tablet PCs use different surfaces. HP/Compaq TC1100 uses
glass display whilst my Toshiba M200 is just a coated TFT. People like the
glass because there's no distortion when you press down. I actually find no
noticeable issues on the M200 either and like the slight give that the
screen has to give a softer feel.

Modifier buttons and eraser tips on the other end are all dependent on
vendor. Toshiba's comes with both, just like the Intuos series. Also, it's
worthwhile to note that I often draw in laptop form (instead of flipping the
screen) and use the keyboard shortcuts concurrently.

Kevin Cheng (KC)
OK/Cancel: Interface Your Fears
kc at ok-cancel.com
www.ok-cancel.com

13 Sep 2004 - 2:32pm
Jef Raskin
2004

>>
>
> Perhaps I wasn't clear. Obviously, larger target areas are still
> quicker to
> acquire but the basic principle of the five easiest points to hit
> being 1)
> where your cursor is and 2-4) where the corners are is false in a
> tablet PC
> (NOT tablet input device because that essentially is still a mouse).
> Why?
> Because the areas are not infinite anymore. I can't wave my pen off the
> screen and click, I have to precisely hit the corner. In addition, the
> precision for corners on tablet PCs are currently the worst areas.

It depends on the physical design of the tablet. If there are raised
edges, then the corners remain fast to point to. Time to point, to a
first order of approximation, is proportional to the log (base 2) of
one plus the ratio of the distance of the target and the length of the
target in the direction of motion. Some sources have a different
formulation, but this form has a strong information theoretic
foundation, and good empirical behavior. If a display has a raised
bezel then your target can be very large as the edges will guide the
pointer to the corner if the interface allows you to slide there before
clicking to indicate the desired point. The size of the target is never
infinite, by the way, but to get the effective size for Fitts's law you
need to do some testing to see the range of where the person is aiming
for.

I give an example of doing this in (sorry to mention it again) "The
Humane Interface" pp 94-95 where an edge is involved.

13 Sep 2004 - 4:40pm
Josh Seiden
2003

> > Perhaps I wasn't clear. Obviously, larger target
areas are still
> > quicker to
> > acquire but the basic principle of the five easiest
points to hit
> > being 1)
> > where your cursor is and 2-4) where the corners are
is false in a
> > tablet PC

> It depends on the physical design of the tablet. If
there are raised
> edges, then the corners remain fast to point to. Time
to point, to a
> first order of approximation, is proportional to the
log (base 2) of
> one plus the ratio of the distance of the target and
the
> length of the
> target in the direction of motion.

There is another factor besides those Jef mentions:
tablets are absolute pointing devices. Mice and
trackballs are relative. This means that one uses two
very different motions to acquire a corner, depending
on the device. With a mouse, you flick your wrist or
scrub the mouse a few times. Acceleration, combined
with the relative motion of the pointer mean that you
never have to move your hand very far. With a tablet,
you have to move your hand to the corner--probably
engaging your arm and shoulder in the process. Raised
corners and edges will help with target acquisition,
but won't change the fact that you are probably making
larger motions.

JS

13 Sep 2004 - 4:48pm
Dave Malouf
2005

> There is another factor besides those Jef mentions:
> tablets are absolute pointing devices. Mice and
> trackballs are relative. This means that one uses two
> very different motions to acquire a corner, depending
> on the device. With a mouse, you flick your wrist or
> scrub the mouse a few times. Acceleration, combined
> with the relative motion of the pointer mean that you
> never have to move your hand very far. With a tablet,
> you have to move your hand to the corner--probably
> engaging your arm and shoulder in the process. Raised
> corners and edges will help with target acquisition,
> but won't change the fact that you are probably making
> larger motions.

But the hand-eye cooridnation is absolute and not relative or calculated. I
know exactly how far I have to move. Also, tablets themselves are an
absolute predictable size.

I would love to see a series of comparative tests around overall pointing
device success w/ a mouse (not just corners) and a pen on tablet (w/ edges
and w/o).

A problem I see w/ tablets is that using a "pen" relies heavily on the
steadiness supplied by having the arm at rest. The problem is that there is
not a predictability of a secured flat surface to place under the hard. This
unsteadiness is something I see that would cause a bio-mechanical problem in
using a tabletPC.

-- dave

13 Sep 2004 - 6:32pm
Kevin Cheng
2004

Jef Raskin said:
>It depends on the physical design of the tablet. If there are raised
>edges, then the corners remain fast to point to. Time to point, to a

Good point. I was speaking in response to the original poster asking for
opinions on Tablet PCs and under current designs, this to me has been a
noticeable problem. The start menu in Windows is now rather cumbersome and I
see many possibilities with gestural shortcuts that are applications are
only scratching the surface of at the moment.

>foundation, and good empirical behaviour. If a display has a raised
>bezel then your target can be very large as the edges will guide the
>pointer to the corner if the interface allows you to slide there before
>clicking to indicate the desired point. The size of the target is never
>infinite, by the way, but to get the effective size for Fitts's law you
>need to do some testing to see the range of where the person is aiming
>for.

Perhaps I should have said the "infinite like" size of the target that
mousse get in corners from never overshooting the corner target. Click of
the wrist and all that. Even with bevels, the motion must be more controlled
than a mouse needs to be to reach corners. I will however rephrase what I
said. Fitts's law of course, does still apply, but the common first
application of Fitts's law that people use (thanks to Tog) is the idea of
screen edges and corners providing an effectively larger virtual target as
the mouse doesn't overshoot. This particular application of the law, on all
current tablet PCs that I'm aware of, is not only not applicable but
actually slightly cumbersome for me.

To avoid sounding like a broken record on the topic, I'll try to push this
forward somewhat and offer what I feel might be improvements for an ideal
tablet OS/application.

Apps like ArtRage and Sketchbook are using radial style menus and palettes
to great effect. I think context sensitive radial menus (seen in numerous
incarnations with mouse interfaces before including LogiTech bundled s/w) is
particularly effective for a tablet PC. Even more so are the stroke
interfaces like those used in Sketchbook. These menus involve the user
initiating at a certain point in the menu and making a quick stroke in a
certain direction to indicate the action. Which is slightly different from
gestural interfaces (specific motions to signify a command) - but both are
useful for tablets.

>I give an example of doing this in (sorry to mention it again) "The
>Humane Interface" pp 94-95 where an edge is involved.

I will make an effort to look at that.

Kevin Cheng (KC)
OK/Cancel: Interface Your Fears
kc at ok-cancel.com
www.ok-cancel.com

13 Sep 2004 - 6:58pm
whitneyq
2010

At 05:40 PM 9/13/2004 -0400, Joshua Seiden wrote:
>There is another factor besides those Jef mentions:
>tablets are absolute pointing devices. Mice and
>trackballs are relative. ...
>but won't change the fact that you are probably making
>larger motions.

One of my first PC programs (circa 1985) was AutoCad. It was set up with
two monitors (one for commands, one for the drawing) and a tablet with menu
of commands surrounding the screen area. The tablet used a puck rather than
a pen. The menus were programmable, so we had one for drawing schematics,
one for mechanical drawings and so on. We were pretty careful to put menu
commands that were common to all in the same location.

When I was drafting, I worked pretty intensely with the program, so there
was a lot of chance for "muscle memory" to build up. When I was really in
the flow, I could not only hit specific menu commands without looking over
at my hand, but could often return the cursor to a precise location on the
screen when I moved back into the pointing area.

We often underestimate the power of kinesthetic memory, and under-use it in
interaction design. The relative positioning of most pointing devices makes
it difficult to use effectively, and we have (mostly) taken for granted
that the pointer should be relative. I've often wondered how much that is
because "we" work with mice/trackballs all day long and find them a
familiar way of working, and how much because it's really optimal.

On the question of what you can do with a tablet PC that you can't do with
a tablet pointer device: There's a whole raft of tasks and work contexts
for which a tablet PC would be a revelation. Anyone who does a lot of
interviewing/facilitating usability tests, has to read, edit or comment on
documents (of any kind or content), or needs to take notes/sketch in
situations other than a comfortable desk environment...

I haven't yet worked myself up to NEEDING one, but I sure love the idea of
HAVING one.

W.

Whitney Quesenbery
Whitney Interactive Design, LLC
w. www.WQusability.com
e. whitneyq at wqusability.com
p. 908-638-5467

UPA - www.usabilityprofessionals.org
STC Usability SIG: www.stcsig.org/usability

13 Sep 2004 - 8:14pm
Listera
2004

Whitney Quesenbery:

> On the question of what you can do with a tablet PC that you can't do with
> a tablet pointer device:

My question was focused on design not general computing, ignoring mobility.
The revelations you cite *in this context* assume that TabletPC is easier to
write on than a digital tablet, but the rest is really a matter of software,
not of the form factor.

Ziya
Nullius in Verba

13 Sep 2004 - 9:10pm
whitneyq
2010

At 09:14 PM 9/13/2004 -0400, Listera wrote:
>My question was focused on design not general computing, ignoring mobility.
>The revelations you cite *in this context* assume that TabletPC is easier to
>write on than a digital tablet, but the rest is really a matter of software,
>not of the form factor.

Agreed.

I was thinking of cases where having the writing and pointing surface be
the same would be an advantage, and where a traditional screen+desk surface
would not be available or optimal.

My examples are mostly from "our world," but think of nurses and other
healthcare professionals, people inspecting things (checking off items),
doing inventory (writing in a few numbers), and a whole range of industrial
applications...

I've already seen some early applications that used a Vadim (touch screen
twisted around the way a tablet does) used for home health applications, so
patients could track diet, medications etc. The visiting healthcare workers
could pick up the data via something like a USB memory stick and bring it
back to the central records. This was about 5 years ago, but it was a
clever solution to bringing a simple data gathering application to people
who did not have computers, modems or sometimes even their own phones.

Whitney Quesenbery
Whitney Interactive Design, LLC
w. www.WQusability.com
e. whitneyq at wqusability.com
p. 908-638-5467

UPA - www.usabilityprofessionals.org
STC Usability SIG: www.stcsig.org/usability

13 Sep 2004 - 9:39pm
Listera
2004

Whitney Quesenbery:

> My examples are mostly from "our world," but think of nurses and other
> healthcare professionals, people inspecting things (checking off items),
> doing inventory (writing in a few numbers), and a whole range of industrial
> applications...

Sure, there's a market for pen-based interfaces. We just don't quite know
how large/lucrative yet. I know MS invented the TabletPC :-) but we have
some early data/experience with a smaller-than-TabletPC form factor; we can
go back to 1993 for that, when Newton was released.

Newton had a ton of vertical apps, like the ones you suggest:

<http://www.panix.com/~clay/newton/>

One of the most popular fields was healthcare:

<http://www.panix.com/~clay/newton/query.cgi?medical+index>

Incidentally, bunch of drawing apps also:

<http://www.panix.com/~clay/newton/query.cgi?drawing+index>

Newton didn't benefit from a lot of technology we take for granted today.
But proved incredibly useful in what it could do. Apparently, there are
still more than 20,000 Newton users.

TabletPC seems to principally target two types of usage:
note-taking/editing/form-filling and design/drawing. I think it's
over-priced for the former group and underdeveloped for the latter. That's
why I was wondering, for the latter group, what it could offer (mobility
notwithstanding) over a PC+Wacom.

Ziya
Nullius in Verba

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