$705k for redesigning a website???

24 Mar 2009 - 9:13pm
5 years ago
23 replies
461 reads
russwilson
2005

Wow - see post/article here:
http://www.dexodesign.com/2009/03/24/705k-for-redesigning-a-website/

This is for real (and maybe I'm the only one shocked about the price tag?)

Russell Wilson
Vice President of Product Design, NetQoS
Blog: http://www.dexodesign.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/russwilson

Comments

24 Mar 2009 - 9:26pm
Mike Dunn
2008

Well, without knowing the scope of the project (which could be significant)
and the amount of bureaucracy that is involved with dealing with a client
like that, it may not be so surprising after all...

2009/3/24 Russell Wilson <russ.wilson at gmail.com>

> Wow - see post/article here:
> http://www.dexodesign.com/2009/03/24/705k-for-redesigning-a-website/
>
> This is for real (and maybe I'm the only one shocked about the price tag?)
>
> Russell Wilson
> Vice President of Product Design, NetQoS
> Blog: http://www.dexodesign.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/russwilson
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixda.org
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help
>

24 Mar 2009 - 9:39pm
usabilitycounts
2008

I've been involved with one of these city projects (ironically, one
for a city about the same size, reach). You wouldn't believe what
you run into.

- City government runs slow. Real slow. One project I worked on, I
did the IA in March of last year, and they are hoping to launch next
month.
- You have to scrub all the old content and re architect it. There's
NO WAY you can do IA for every page, so you do very high level
patterns, hoping the content fits. Or, does anyone want to do a site
inventory for thousands of pages?
- It's decision by committee.
- Training isn't easy because the employees aren't what you see in
the private sector (not saying they aren't as smart, their
priorities are different).

The site 84,000 pages according to Google. They're going to go over
that bid.

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Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40427

24 Mar 2009 - 10:03pm
Mark Schraad
2006

reminds me of the late 90's

On Mar 24, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Russell Wilson wrote:

> Wow - see post/article here:
> http://www.dexodesign.com/2009/03/24/705k-for-redesigning-a-website/
>
> This is for real (and maybe I'm the only one shocked about the
> price tag?)
>
> Russell Wilson
> Vice President of Product Design, NetQoS
> Blog: http://www.dexodesign.com
> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/russwilson
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixda.org
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help

24 Mar 2009 - 10:05pm
Christine Boese
2006

Yeah, and it's probably "shovel ready".

Chris

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Patrick Neeman <pat at usabilitycounts.com>wrote:

> I've been involved with one of these city projects (ironically, one
> for a city about the same size, reach). You wouldn't believe what
> you run into.
>
> - City government runs slow. Real slow. One project I worked on, I
> did the IA in March of last year, and they are hoping to launch next
> month.
> - You have to scrub all the old content and re architect it. There's
> NO WAY you can do IA for every page, so you do very high level
> patterns, hoping the content fits. Or, does anyone want to do a site
> inventory for thousands of pages?
> - It's decision by committee.
> - Training isn't easy because the employees aren't what you see in
> the private sector (not saying they aren't as smart, their
> priorities are different).
>
> The site 84,000 pages according to Google. They're going to go over
> that bid.
>
>
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Posted from the new ixda.org
> http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40427
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixda.org
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help
>

24 Mar 2009 - 10:24pm
Jared M. Spool
2003

On Mar 24, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Russell Wilson wrote:

> http://www.dexodesign.com/2009/03/24/705k-for-redesigning-a-website/
>
> This is for real (and maybe I'm the only one shocked about the price
> tag?)

These days, projects that are $750k to $2.5m are fairly common.

I'm not shocked.

Jared

24 Mar 2009 - 10:30pm
Damon Dimmick
2008

Jared,

Next time you pass one of those up, send it my way. I have the
bandwidth, but not the connections ;)

Cheers, mate.

-Damon

Jared Spool wrote:
>
> On Mar 24, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Russell Wilson wrote:
>
>> http://www.dexodesign.com/2009/03/24/705k-for-redesigning-a-website/
>>
>> This is for real (and maybe I'm the only one shocked about the price
>> tag?)
>
> These days, projects that are $750k to $2.5m are fairly common.
>
> I'm not shocked.
>
> Jared
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixda.org
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
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24 Mar 2009 - 10:54pm
russwilson
2005

I know there are projects of this size, but from the description (and
admittedly many
details were left out), it just didn't seem like that large of a project.

Russell Wilson
Vice President of Product Design, NetQoS
Blog: http://www.dexodesign.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/russwilson

On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 10:24 PM, Jared Spool <jspool at uie.com> wrote:

>
> On Mar 24, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Russell Wilson wrote:
>
> http://www.dexodesign.com/2009/03/24/705k-for-redesigning-a-website/
>
> This is for real (and maybe I'm the only one shocked about the price tag?)
>
>
> These days, projects that are $750k to $2.5m are fairly common.
>
> I'm not shocked.
>
> Jared
>
>

24 Mar 2009 - 11:00pm
AlinutzaV
2009

It's funny but the actual software development is outsourced in
India. And by the looks of it the core is an open source platform

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Posted from the new ixda.org
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24 Mar 2009 - 11:14pm
usabilitycounts
2008

Well, that will play well in Austin, er, Peoria. :)

I've quoted that exact project, and the price actually seems low.
They must be outsourcing a good portion of that project.

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Posted from the new ixda.org
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25 Mar 2009 - 8:47am
Jared M. Spool
2003

On Mar 24, 2009, at 11:54 PM, Russell Wilson wrote:

> I know there are projects of this size, but from the description
> (and admittedly many
> details were left out), it just didn't seem like that large of a
> project.

Website redesign projects are a gaseous substance. They expand to fill
all available budget.

Jared

25 Mar 2009 - 10:09am
russwilson
2005

Don't get me wrong - I've personally responded to and won a $6.5m
project in the past (with a large retail store). That project was
literally immense... and the price was easily justified.

But I'm just not seeing what the complexity is in this project (and
admit that I don't know enough of the details).

@Patrick - do you have the RFP or more details that you can share?

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Posted from the new ixda.org
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25 Mar 2009 - 10:16am
russwilson
2005

If I read correctly it also says that they sent the RFP out to 228
companies and received 3 replies??? Does that indicate a
"nightmare" project?

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
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25 Mar 2009 - 10:26am
Jared M. Spool
2003

On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:16 AM, Russelll Wilson wrote:

> If I read correctly it also says that they sent the RFP out to 228
> companies and received 3 replies??? Does that indicate a
> "nightmare" project?

Or it could mean that firms are getting smarter and not responding to
RFPs.

Jared

25 Mar 2009 - 10:33am
Mark Schraad
2006

The only 'reasonable' response to an RFP (IMO) is to chuck a huge number at
it to see if they bite.
Three reasons that folks put out an RFP:

1. They have no idea what they want and would like you to tell them for
free.

2. They already know who will get the project, they just want qualifying
prices.

3. They will buy cheap... as in the lowest bidder.

I know there are a very few times when a RFP is done well. And, there are
many times when an RFP is mandated... either by government regulation or by
industry culture, but it is a terrible approach to design and counter
productive towards quality and effective problem solution.

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Jared Spool <jspool at uie.com> wrote:

>
> On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:16 AM, Russelll Wilson wrote:
>
> If I read correctly it also says that they sent the RFP out to 228
>> companies and received 3 replies??? Does that indicate a
>> "nightmare" project?
>>
>
> Or it could mean that firms are getting smarter and not responding to RFPs.
>
> Jared
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixda.org
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help
>

25 Mar 2009 - 10:37am
Sachin Ghodke
2008

Without knowing the extent of the website and what it involves it
really could be the case that this $705 K minimum bid is real. But
then again, I wonder if the amount of complexity involved would make
this website any expensive as this one.

I can understand that the complexity will be a hard thing to overcome
while taking a decision if this is to be outsourced to any one of the
Asian countries. I am sure here the price would be half of what is
being asked for here. Maybe I am biased towards outsourcing, but when
critical decisions are to be made then a design agency that is local
would certainly win the race.

I would be pleasantly surprised if this gets outsourced!

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Posted from the new ixda.org
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25 Mar 2009 - 10:48am
Anonymous

Considering this is for a government contract I doubt it would be
outsourced to other countries. Fed, state, or local projects almost
always require U.S. citizenship or at minimum green card status (at
least for the Federal level). Any people involved on that project
also goes through a basic level of background/security check.

As everyone else stated, depending on the size and complexity the
price could have ballooned. On top of the normal user experience
design tasks and personnel pricing, the final price could involve
sending multiple personnel to the CMS's training program, the time
involved for content migration into the new CMS, development licenses
for the contracting company, etc.

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25 Mar 2009 - 3:15pm
usabilitycounts
2008

I don't have the RFP response, but I >do< have the
deliverables/wireframes/content matrix, and the size of the site.

One of the complexities of a site like this is that isn't not just
flat HTML -- there are a lot of dynamic forms. Think about it, 83k
pages. That's a lot of pages that have to be edited, massaged. That
doesn't include the cost of setting up the CMS, building the forms,
etc, and scaling for governance.

After going through the process with the other city (they were
actually at 130k pages), this price is low. And even though the price
was off, if they are offshoring, the city is going to be rebidding
this out. I think I know one of the firms that bid on it (and list).

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Posted from the new ixda.org
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25 Mar 2009 - 7:18pm
Angel Marquez
2008

Say you give it a year to do and an annual salary of 100k per worker, that
would give you 7 people to hire.
What 7 roles would you employ?

25 Mar 2009 - 7:31pm
usabilitycounts
2008

well, it's not 100k per worker -- it's 250k per worker at consulting
rates (or splits depending on offshoring)...

when considering that's literally three people for a year...

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25 Mar 2009 - 7:35pm
Angel Marquez
2008

Totally my point. The amount is not enough to get much done. I was using the
100k block as a point of reference.
If you had to organize a team and the WBS you would have to find some cheap
labor.

I was thinking something like this with the 705 as a base:
3 developers - cross disciplined (front end, back end, scripting,
programming)
1 visual designer - creative direction experience
1 production artist - focus on IA
1 interaction designer - platform specific
1 product manager - proven start to finish project portfolio

25 Mar 2009 - 7:41pm
usabilitycounts
2008

And the content migration...

That's going to hurt, and cannot be done by that team.

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25 Mar 2009 - 10:46pm
Angel Marquez
2008

I would totally do it for the spare 5k after the new system was defined and
the old system inventory had been taken.
Integration is a pain, I hear that....

The quick team scope could pull it off if the synergy was balanced; but, the
likeliness is in the lower 10 percentile.

I predict that project takes 3 years and goes through 3 teams with maybe one
survivor from the original team that really has his or her heart in it
seeing it through. 705kx3

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 10:41 AM, Patrick Neeman <pat at usabilitycounts.com>wrote:

> And the content migration...
>
> That's going to hurt, and cannot be done by that team.
>
>
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
> Posted from the new ixda.org
> http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=40427
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixda.org
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help
>

27 Mar 2009 - 1:19pm
oliviacw
2008

My company has worked on several county-level web site redesigns, and for a
complete soup-to-nuts job, 705K does not strike me as too high, at all. You
have to discover all of the maverick web sites that are going to be folded
in to the new site, negotiate with 25 different departments over how their
needs are going to be met by a standard architecture, design the CMS, create
CMS data forms that can be used by those 25 different departments, etcetera
and so forth. Not to mention all new graphics, training materials, content
migration, application migration, and other things you never even thought
of.

- Olivia

On Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 6:15 AM, Patrick Neeman <pat at usabilitycounts.com>wrote:

> I don't have the RFP response, but I >do< have the
> deliverables/wireframes/content matrix, and the size of the site.
>
> One of the complexities of a site like this is that isn't not just
> flat HTML -- there are a lot of dynamic forms. Think about it, 83k
> pages. That's a lot of pages that have to be edited, massaged. That
> doesn't include the cost of setting up the CMS, building the forms,
> etc, and scaling for governance.
>
> After going through the process with the other city (they were
> actually at 130k pages), this price is low. And even though the price
> was off, if they are offshoring, the city is going to be rebidding
> this out. I think I know one of the firms that bid on it (and list).
>
>
>

--
Olivia C. Williamson
ocwilliamson at gmail.com
650-305-5950

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