book recommendation for everyone

15 Jun 2005 - 2:00pm
9 years ago
23 replies
816 reads
Wendy Fischer
2004

I'd like to recommend that everybody read the new edition of Cost-Justifying Usability : An Update for the Internet Age.

I just finished reading the majority of it, and thought that it was an excellent read. While it is a "usability" book, it's a valuable resource for interaction designers also, particularly if they have to ROI activities.

In addition, there was an excellent chapter that detailed how to think about improving internal social return on investment. It was Chapter 8: Categories of Return on Investment and Their Practical Implications by Chauncey Wilson and Stephanie Rosenbaum. This was a must read chapter for anybody practicing interaction design/UCD within a corporate organization.

-Wendy

Comments

15 Jun 2005 - 2:15pm
Dave Malouf
2005

When I was at the Adaptive Path workshop at the IA Summit this past year,
they explained why the methods presented in this volume really didn't add up
correctly. I don't remember the details exactly, but their formulation of
either return or investment didn't line up with reality in one way or
another.

BTW, if you are REALLY interested in ROI and your design organization and
the overall design culture of your organization, then I REALLY recommend
their whitepaper "Leveraging Business Value: How ROI Changes User
Experience"
http://adaptivepath.com/publications/reports/businessvalue/

My only minor complaint is the cost, $395. I think it is worth it though and
so did my CEO, who is actually now in an Exec MBA program at Wharton (Univ.
Penn).

Enjoy!

-- dave

On 6/15/05 3:00 PM, "Wendy Fischer" <erpdesigner at yahoo.com> wrote:

> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
> I'd like to recommend that everybody read the new edition of Cost-Justifying
> Usability : An Update for the Internet Age.
>
> I just finished reading the majority of it, and thought that it was an
> excellent read. While it is a "usability" book, it's a valuable resource for
> interaction designers also, particularly if they have to ROI activities.
>
> In addition, there was an excellent chapter that detailed how to think about
> improving internal social return on investment. It was Chapter 8: Categories
> of Return on Investment and Their Practical Implications by Chauncey Wilson
> and Stephanie Rosenbaum. This was a must read chapter for anybody practicing
> interaction design/UCD within a corporate organization.
>
> -Wendy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/

-- dave

David Heller
http://synapticburn.com/
http://ixdg.org/
Dave (at) ixdg (dot) org
Dave (at) synapticburn (dot) com
AIM: bolinhanyc || Y!: dave_ux || MSN: hippiefunk at hotmail.com

15 Jun 2005 - 2:24pm
livlab
2003

I was in that workshop (sitting right next to Dave, hi Dave!) and Janet
was explaining that the numbers were inflated. If you analyze the
composition of the formula used to calculate the ROI you will see it is
very artificial and multiplies certain values by amounts that make
absolutelly no sense.

I can't remember the exact problem right now (There were several, I can
check my notes), but if you're interested, you can listen to the whole
session on mp3 (part I and II of the talk):

IA summit recordings
http://livlab.com/archives/000018.html

You can hear Janet Frasers' explanation of the issues plus Dave and
myself commenting on it.

And the report is worth every cent.

Cheers,

Liv

David Heller wrote:
> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
> When I was at the Adaptive Path workshop at the IA Summit this past year,
> they explained why the methods presented in this volume really didn't add up
> correctly. I don't remember the details exactly, but their formulation of
> either return or investment didn't line up with reality in one way or
> another.
>
> BTW, if you are REALLY interested in ROI and your design organization and
> the overall design culture of your organization, then I REALLY recommend
> their whitepaper "Leveraging Business Value: How ROI Changes User
> Experience"
> http://adaptivepath.com/publications/reports/businessvalue/
>
> My only minor complaint is the cost, $395. I think it is worth it though and
> so did my CEO, who is actually now in an Exec MBA program at Wharton (Univ.
> Penn).
>
> Enjoy!
>
> -- dave
>
>
> On 6/15/05 3:00 PM, "Wendy Fischer" <erpdesigner at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>>
>>I'd like to recommend that everybody read the new edition of Cost-Justifying
>>Usability : An Update for the Internet Age.
>>
>>I just finished reading the majority of it, and thought that it was an
>>excellent read. While it is a "usability" book, it's a valuable resource for
>>interaction designers also, particularly if they have to ROI activities.
>>
>>In addition, there was an excellent chapter that detailed how to think about
>>improving internal social return on investment. It was Chapter 8: Categories
>>of Return on Investment and Their Practical Implications by Chauncey Wilson
>>and Stephanie Rosenbaum. This was a must read chapter for anybody practicing
>>interaction design/UCD within a corporate organization.
>>
>>-Wendy
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
>>To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
>>(Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
>>Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
>>Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
>>Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>
>
> -- dave
>
> David Heller
> http://synapticburn.com/
> http://ixdg.org/
> Dave (at) ixdg (dot) org
> Dave (at) synapticburn (dot) com
> AIM: bolinhanyc || Y!: dave_ux || MSN: hippiefunk at hotmail.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/

15 Jun 2005 - 2:25pm
Scott Weiss
2005

Dave,

Are you speaking of the recent rewrite of Cost-Justifying Usability or
the old, outdated version?

The new book, "Cost-Justifying Usability : An Update for the Internet
Age", was published in April, 2005.

Also, I doubt that one consulting agency would have a substantially
better grasp of ROI than 22 chapters spanning 640 pages written by more
than a dozen experts in the field from all over the planet...

-scott

David Heller wrote:

> When I was at the Adaptive Path workshop at the IA Summit this past year,
> they explained why the methods presented in this volume really didn't
> add up
> correctly. I don't remember the details exactly, but their formulation of
> either return or investment didn't line up with reality in one way or
> another.
> ...
> -- dave

15 Jun 2005 - 2:43pm
Dave Malouf
2005

Hi Scott,

Read the whitepaper. They did their homework ... Even the free abstract will
tell you where they are coming from. They did it w/ the Haas School of
Business at the University of California, and worked with some pretty good
case studies.

But you are right as I do believe the comment was based on the old one
edition. I'm pretty sure, anyway. (If anyone from AP wants to chime in,
please do.) But it wasn't the #'s that were in question, but the methods. I
remember the critique of Jakob Nielsens' ROI statements much better. I think
Janet even said, let's wait and see what they do in their upcoming release.

Livia, thanx for getting those MP3s up there. :)

Let me spin this thread in another direction. After reading and then
experiencing the AP whitepaper and seminar (G-d! I sound so evangelistic), I
have to say what they are offering us all is a tool for thinking about
organizational change, as opposed to a method for actual measurement.

In the end, for any key indicator that can be measured + or -
quantitatively, it is incredibly rare that only UX issues (let alone ONLY
Usability issues) would be the only criteria to affect that change.

So what they instead speak about is how a company interested in ROI, and
applying ROI principles, compares to companies that don't include their UX
teams in their general ROI calculations, and that companies that do include
them, tend to have a better design culture and better design results
overall.

Something to remember about ROI, is that ROI is used in business as a
prediction tool for making decisions. It is NOT used as a tool generally to
measure output on production. That is generally known as profit (or loss).

-- dave

On 6/15/05 3:25 PM, "Scott Weiss" <sweiss at usableproducts.com> wrote:

> Dave,
>
> Are you speaking of the recent rewrite of Cost-Justifying Usability or
> the old, outdated version?
>
> The new book, "Cost-Justifying Usability : An Update for the Internet
> Age", was published in April, 2005.
>
> Also, I doubt that one consulting agency would have a substantially
> better grasp of ROI than 22 chapters spanning 640 pages written by more
> than a dozen experts in the field from all over the planet...
>
> -scott
>
> David Heller wrote:
>
>> When I was at the Adaptive Path workshop at the IA Summit this past year,
>> they explained why the methods presented in this volume really didn't
>> add up
>> correctly. I don't remember the details exactly, but their formulation of
>> either return or investment didn't line up with reality in one way or
>> another.
>> ...
>> -- dave
>
>

-- dave

David Heller
http://synapticburn.com/
http://ixdg.org/
Dave (at) ixdg (dot) org
Dave (at) synapticburn (dot) com
AIM: bolinhanyc || Y!: dave_ux || MSN: hippiefunk at hotmail.com

15 Jun 2005 - 3:04pm
Gerard Torenvliet
2004

Dave,

Scott wasn't arguing that you shouldn't read Adaptive Path's
whitepaper, but rather that you shouldn't throw out the second edition
of "Cost-Justifying Usability".

Even within the pages of the first edition, it was acknowledged that
the methods used needed work and hence that the results had
limitations.

The new edition only has four papers even reminiscent of ones from the
first edition (they're totally overhauled with new data), and the
following 18 chapters are fully new. The authors are respected
academics and practitioners (e.g., Deborah Mayhew, Randy Bias,
Clare-Marie Karat, Aaron Marcus, Tom Brinck, David Siegel, Susan Dray,
Arnold Lund, Scott Weiss (!), Jonathan Grudin and many more). The book
is a combo of case studies, techniques, and justification arguments.
I've only had a cursory look at it, but these guys are heavyweights.
(And they still admit to limitations.)

How does it compare to Adaptive Path's work? I have no clue. If
Adaptive Path honestly wants to have an impact, they should consider
publishing their work, either in a book or a journal. Then it will be
able to get the same scrutiny that they are giving a more than 10 year
old study. From my read of your posts, however, the 2nd Ed of CJU is
every bit as nuanced as AP's report, and focuses on the intangibles in
just the same way.

If someone can get me a cost-effective version of AP's report, I'll
certainly read it. However, when it comes to the CJU book, let's not
fall to "not-invented-here" syndrome.

Regards,
-Gerard

--
Gerard Torenvliet
g.torenvliet at gmail.com

15 Jun 2005 - 3:07pm
Wendy Fischer
2004

There was more to this book than just methods cost justifying usability. I found it insightful for thinking about thinking about UX ROI from a 25,000 foot level, UX strategy, UX process, having use cases to look at, and having examples/use cases of applying doing a cost benefits analysis of User Experience/usability. I did share one of the chapters with two of our brilliant PM who are already doing our cost analysis on other things, and they found it useful for generating ideas about how to model the cost benefit of user experience activities (in this case, usability testing).

The chapters in the book are well written. I was able to relate to the experiences and draw and think about my own past experiences.

I'm sure that the Adaptive Path information is useful; however, I don't know the methodologies that were used, nor have I taken the class, and I'm not paying $395 for the paper, so I can't really comment on the differences.

I'll admit I have the old one somewhere that I bought in 1998. I bought it, looked at it, my eyes glazed over and I went on my way. I prefer this one much better because it does bring into context the dotcom boom/bust.

-Wendy

-Wendy

However, I did share the chapter

David Heller <dave at ixdg.org> wrote:
[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]

Hi Scott,

Read the whitepaper. They did their homework ... Even the free abstract will
tell you where they are coming from. They did it w/ the Haas School of
Business at the University of California, and worked with some pretty good
case studies.

But you are right as I do believe the comment was based on the old one
edition. I'm pretty sure, anyway. (If anyone from AP wants to chime in,
please do.) But it wasn't the #'s that were in question, but the methods. I
remember the critique of Jakob Nielsens' ROI statements much better. I think
Janet even said, let's wait and see what they do in their upcoming release.

Livia, thanx for getting those MP3s up there. :)

Let me spin this thread in another direction. After reading and then
experiencing the AP whitepaper and seminar (G-d! I sound so evangelistic), I
have to say what they are offering us all is a tool for thinking about
organizational change, as opposed to a method for actual measurement.

In the end, for any key indicator that can be measured + or -
quantitatively, it is incredibly rare that only UX issues (let alone ONLY
Usability issues) would be the only criteria to affect that change.

So what they instead speak about is how a company interested in ROI, and
applying ROI principles, compares to companies that don't include their UX
teams in their general ROI calculations, and that companies that do include
them, tend to have a better design culture and better design results
overall.

Something to remember about ROI, is that ROI is used in business as a
prediction tool for making decisions. It is NOT used as a tool generally to
measure output on production. That is generally known as profit (or loss).

-- dave

On 6/15/05 3:25 PM, "Scott Weiss" wrote:

> Dave,
>
> Are you speaking of the recent rewrite of Cost-Justifying Usability or
> the old, outdated version?
>
> The new book, "Cost-Justifying Usability : An Update for the Internet
> Age", was published in April, 2005.
>
> Also, I doubt that one consulting agency would have a substantially
> better grasp of ROI than 22 chapters spanning 640 pages written by more
> than a dozen experts in the field from all over the planet...
>
> -scott
>
> David Heller wrote:
>
>> When I was at the Adaptive Path workshop at the IA Summit this past year,
>> they explained why the methods presented in this volume really didn't
>> add up
>> correctly. I don't remember the details exactly, but their formulation of
>> either return or investment didn't line up with reality in one way or
>> another.
>> ...
>> -- dave
>
>

-- dave

David Heller
http://synapticburn.com/
http://ixdg.org/
Dave (at) ixdg (dot) org
Dave (at) synapticburn (dot) com
AIM: bolinhanyc || Y!: dave_ux || MSN: hippiefunk at hotmail.com

_______________________________________________
Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
(Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/

15 Jun 2005 - 3:10pm
Dave Malouf
2005

Thanx! Everyone makes a very compelling case for this new edition. I look
forward to giving it a read soon!

-- dave

On 6/15/05 4:07 PM, "Wendy Fischer" <erpdesigner at yahoo.com> wrote:

> There was more to this book than just methods cost justifying usability. I
> found it insightful for thinking about thinking about UX ROI from a 25,000
> foot level, UX strategy, UX process, having use cases to look at, and having
> examples/use cases of applying doing a cost benefits analysis of User
> Experience/usability. I did share one of the chapters with two of our
> brilliant PM who are already doing our cost analysis on other things, and they
> found it useful for generating ideas about how to model the cost benefit of
> user experience activities (in this case, usability testing).
>
> The chapters in the book are well written. I was able to relate to the
> experiences and draw and think about my own past experiences.
>
> I'm sure that the Adaptive Path information is useful; however, I don't know
> the methodologies that were used, nor have I taken the class, and I'm not
> paying $395 for the paper, so I can't really comment on the differences.
>
> I'll admit I have the old one somewhere that I bought in 1998. I bought it,
> looked at it, my eyes glazed over and I went on my way. I prefer this one
> much better because it does bring into context the dotcom boom/bust.
>
> -Wendy
>
>
> -Wendy
>
>
>
>
>
> However, I did share the chapter
>
> David Heller <dave at ixdg.org> wrote:
>> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>>
>> Hi Scott,
>>
>> Read the whitepaper. They did their homework ... Even the free abstract will
>> tell you where they are coming from. They did it w/ the Haas School of
>> Business at the University of California, and worked with some pretty good
>> case studies.
>>
>> But you are right as I do believe the comment was based on the old one
>> edition. I'm pretty sure, anyway. (If anyone from AP wants to chime in,
>> please do.) But it wasn't the #'s that were in question, but the methods. I
>> remember the critique of Jakob Nielsens' ROI statements much better. I think
>> Janet even said, let's wait and see what they do in their upcoming release.
>>
>> Livia, thanx for getting those MP3s up there. :)
>>
>> Let me spin this thread in another direction. After reading and then
>> experiencing the AP whitepaper and seminar (G-d! I sound so evangelistic), I
>> have to say what they are offering us all is a tool for thinking about
>> organizational change, as opposed to a method for actual measurement.
>>
>> In the end, for any key indicator that can be measured + or -
>> quantitatively, it is incredibly rare that only UX issues (let alone ONLY
>> Usability issues) would be the only criteria to affect that change.
>>
>> So what they instead speak about is how a company interested in ROI, and
>> applying ROI principles, compares to companies that don't include their UX
>> teams in their general ROI calculations, and that companies that do include
>> them, tend to have a better design culture and better design results
>> overall.
>>
>> Something to remember about ROI, is that ROI is used in business as a
>> prediction tool for making decisions. It is NOT used as a tool generally to
>> measure output on production. That is generally known as profit (or loss).
>>
>> -- dave
>>
>>
>> On 6/15/05 3:25 PM, "Scott Weiss" wrote:
>>
>>> > Dave,
>>> >
>>> > Are you speaking of the recent rewrite of Cost-Justifying Usability or
>>> > the old, outdated version?
>>> >
>>> > The new book, "Cost-Justifying Usability : An Update for the Internet
>>> > Age", was published in April, 2005.
>>> >
>>> > Also, I doubt that one consulting agency would have a substantially
>>> > better grasp of ROI than 22 chapters spanning 640 pages written by more
>>> > than a dozen experts in the field from all over the planet...
>>> >
>>> > -scott
>>> >
>>> > David Heller wrote:
>>> >
>>>> >> When I was at the Adaptive Path workshop at the IA Summit this past
>>>> year,
>>>> >> they explained why the methods presented in this volume really didn't
>>>> >> add up
>>>> >> correctly. I don't remember the details exactly, but their formulation
of
>>>> >> either return or investment didn't line up with reality in one way or
>>>> >> another.
>>>> >> ...
>>>> >> -- dave
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>> -- dave
>>
>> David Heller
>> http://synapticburn.com/
>> http://ixdg.org/
>> Dave (at) ixdg (dot) org
>> Dave (at) synapticburn (dot) com
>> AIM: bolinhanyc || Y!: dave_ux || MSN: hippiefunk at hotmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
>> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
>> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
>> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
>> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
>> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>

-- dave

David Heller
http://synapticburn.com/
http://ixdg.org/
Dave (at) ixdg (dot) org
Dave (at) synapticburn (dot) com
AIM: bolinhanyc || Y!: dave_ux || MSN: hippiefunk at hotmail.com

15 Jun 2005 - 3:11pm
Wendy Fischer
2004

Well the cost is definitely cheaper, $60.00 as opposed to $395......

It would be more useful to me as a practitioner if Adaptive Path published more research/use cases in a book like their "report" as opposed to other "soft" literature they've published.

-Wendy

Gerard Torenvliet <g.torenvliet at gmail.com> wrote:
[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]

Dave,

Scott wasn't arguing that you shouldn't read Adaptive Path's
whitepaper, but rather that you shouldn't throw out the second edition
of "Cost-Justifying Usability".

Even within the pages of the first edition, it was acknowledged that
the methods used needed work and hence that the results had
limitations.

The new edition only has four papers even reminiscent of ones from the
first edition (they're totally overhauled with new data), and the
following 18 chapters are fully new. The authors are respected
academics and practitioners (e.g., Deborah Mayhew, Randy Bias,
Clare-Marie Karat, Aaron Marcus, Tom Brinck, David Siegel, Susan Dray,
Arnold Lund, Scott Weiss (!), Jonathan Grudin and many more). The book
is a combo of case studies, techniques, and justification arguments.
I've only had a cursory look at it, but these guys are heavyweights.
(And they still admit to limitations.)

How does it compare to Adaptive Path's work? I have no clue. If
Adaptive Path honestly wants to have an impact, they should consider
publishing their work, either in a book or a journal. Then it will be
able to get the same scrutiny that they are giving a more than 10 year
old study. From my read of your posts, however, the 2nd Ed of CJU is
every bit as nuanced as AP's report, and focuses on the intangibles in
just the same way.

If someone can get me a cost-effective version of AP's report, I'll
certainly read it. However, when it comes to the CJU book, let's not
fall to "not-invented-here" syndrome.

Regards,
-Gerard

--
Gerard Torenvliet
g.torenvliet at gmail.com
_______________________________________________
Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
(Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/

15 Jun 2005 - 3:16pm
Johan Sjostrand
2005

Why is knowledge so expensive?

$395 for a 68p whitepaper? I'm looking forward to hearing someone
justifying this.

Hopefully I'm just ignorant.

/Johan Sjostrand

15 Jun 2005 - 3:35pm
Wendy Fischer
2004

Cost Justifying Usability is priced at $59.95 and has 660 pages. This comes out to roughly ~$.0.09083 per page.

The 68 page white paper at $395 comes out to ~$5.80882 a page.Throw in another $225/325 to listen to Janice Frazier speak at the conference, plus air/hotel/meals/conference fee to the IA Summit in Montreal ~$2000-$2500. So you're spending roughly $2500-$2825

I'll go propose this to my boss and see what he says.......

-Wendy

Johan Sjostrand <johan at form-studios.com> wrote:
[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]

Why is knowledge so expensive?

$395 for a 68p whitepaper? I'm looking forward to hearing someone
justifying this.

Hopefully I'm just ignorant.

/Johan Sjostrand
_______________________________________________
Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
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15 Jun 2005 - 3:43pm
Dan Saffer
2003

On Jun 15, 2005, at 4:16 PM, Johan Sjostrand wrote:

> Why is knowledge so expensive?

Because it doesn't fall from the sky. Someone has to create and
disseminate it. That's why we're called knowledge *workers* not
knowledge gatherers.

> $395 for a 68p whitepaper? I'm looking forward to hearing someone
> justifying this.

68 pages is not an inconsiderable amount; it's not a blog entry.
Janice had to take the (considerable) time to research and write it.
That time is taken from other commercial endeavors. Thus, she
reasonably wants to be paid for her time. Information may want to be
free, but people want to be paid.

"None but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money." --Samuel Johnson

Dan

Dan Saffer
Sr. Interaction Designer, Adaptive Path
http://www.adaptivepath.com
http://www.odannyboy.com

15 Jun 2005 - 3:48pm
Dave Malouf
2005

Hi Wendy, we got the point ... Sheesh!

Question? Does anyone know how much the average IDC or Gartner paper runs
these days?

Just curious.

-- dave

David Heller
http://synapticburn.com/
http://ixdg.org/
Dave (at) ixdg (dot) org
Dave (at) synapticburn (dot) com
AIM: bolinhanyc || Y!: dave_ux || MSN: hippiefunk at hotmail.com

15 Jun 2005 - 4:02pm
Wendy Fischer
2004

looks like Gartner is about $95...

David Heller <dave at ixdg.org> wrote:[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]

Hi Wendy, we got the point ... Sheesh!

Question? Does anyone know how much the average IDC or Gartner paper runs
these days?

Just curious.

-- dave

David Heller
http://synapticburn.com/
http://ixdg.org/
Dave (at) ixdg (dot) org
Dave (at) synapticburn (dot) com
AIM: bolinhanyc || Y!: dave_ux || MSN: hippiefunk at hotmail.com

_______________________________________________
Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
(Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/

15 Jun 2005 - 4:58pm
livlab
2003

Like Dave I'm also excited to read through the new edition of the book,
thanks everyone for the pointers.

> Cost Justifying Usability is priced at $59.95 and has 660 pages.
> This comes out to roughly ~$.0.09083 per page.
> The 68 page white paper at $395 comes out to ~$5.80882 a page.

That's a great example of why certain math equasions on the first
version of the book didn't provide valuable information to calculating
the ROI. Finding the cost per page doesn't really tell you anything
about the content or how relevant the information on a page is.

> I'll go propose this to my boss and see what he says.......

I proposed this to my boss, he sent me to the conference and told me to
get the book. :) (...and we got the AP paper Janice authored too). It's
really about what is contextually relevant to you. In my case, all these
things are very very important and so the above equasion doesn't apply,
I'm sorry you have to compromise Wendy!

15 Jun 2005 - 5:12pm
Wendy Fischer
2004

Sometimes I'm just very sarcastic and it just doesn't come across well in email.......

Livia Labate <liv at livlab.com> wrote:[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]

Like Dave I'm also excited to read through the new edition of the book,
thanks everyone for the pointers.

> Cost Justifying Usability is priced at $59.95 and has 660 pages.
> This comes out to roughly ~$.0.09083 per page.
> The 68 page white paper at $395 comes out to ~$5.80882 a page.

That's a great example of why certain math equasions on the first
version of the book didn't provide valuable information to calculating
the ROI. Finding the cost per page doesn't really tell you anything
about the content or how relevant the information on a page is.

> I'll go propose this to my boss and see what he says.......

I proposed this to my boss, he sent me to the conference and told me to
get the book. :) (...and we got the AP paper Janice authored too). It's
really about what is contextually relevant to you. In my case, all these
things are very very important and so the above equasion doesn't apply,
I'm sorry you have to compromise Wendy!

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15 Jun 2005 - 5:22pm
dszuc
2005

Currently in the middle of writing and researching a book and it takes time
(and money) and ... Time ;)

We have bought reports from Adaptive, UIE, NNg, Forrester etc and find these
to be a useful supplement to the vast amount of free knowledge already out
there on the web.

In some small way, we also like to support the "paid model" on the web.

Rgds,

Daniel Szuc
Principal Usability Consultant
Apogee Usability Asia Ltd
www.apogeehk.com
'Usability in Asia'

-----Original Message-----
From:
discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com
[mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.
com] On Behalf Of Dan Saffer
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 4:43 AM
To: ixd-discussion
Subject: Re: [ID Discuss] book recommendation for everyone

[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]

On Jun 15, 2005, at 4:16 PM, Johan Sjostrand wrote:

> Why is knowledge so expensive?

Because it doesn't fall from the sky. Someone has to create and
disseminate it. That's why we're called knowledge *workers* not
knowledge gatherers.

> $395 for a 68p whitepaper? I'm looking forward to hearing someone
> justifying this.

68 pages is not an inconsiderable amount; it's not a blog entry.
Janice had to take the (considerable) time to research and write it.
That time is taken from other commercial endeavors. Thus, she
reasonably wants to be paid for her time. Information may want to be
free, but people want to be paid.

"None but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money." --Samuel Johnson

Dan

Dan Saffer
Sr. Interaction Designer, Adaptive Path http://www.adaptivepath.com
http://www.odannyboy.com

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15 Jun 2005 - 5:39pm
Peter Merholz
2004

>
> But you are right as I do believe the comment was based on the old one
> edition. I'm pretty sure, anyway. (If anyone from AP wants to chime
> in,
> please do.) But it wasn't the #'s that were in question, but the
> methods. I
> remember the critique of Jakob Nielsens' ROI statements much
> better. I think
> Janet even said, let's wait and see what they do in their upcoming
> release.

You rang?

Adaptive Path's criticism is of the first edition of Cost-Justifying
Usability, which came out many years ago (before the whole Web boom),
and is heavily client-software-oriented. We took issue with their
cost-benefit analysis methods, particularly those around adding up
lots of little things (2 seconds saved per screen over 100 screens
used per day by each user over 100 users * some portion of their
salary = COST SAVINGS OF $132,034). Our experience and research
suggests that such financial approaches are pretty much scoffed at by
financial analysts and planners.

We have nothing to say about the second edition, because we haven't
read it.

Our critique of Jakob's Usability ROI can be found here:
http://www.boxesandarrows.com/archives/
report_review_nielsennorman_groups_usability_return_on_investment.php

--peter

15 Jun 2005 - 5:57pm
Wendy Fischer
2004

so I think that there's a couple of models for publishing:

1) Informal research - you've written something and posted it for free on the web and it'sd available to everyone

2) Formal research - You've conducted research, you've written a paper and gotten it published in conference proceedings or a journal. The information is available but the person has to get access to it somehow (web, conference proceedings, library, journal access)

3) Book - You've conducted research and written a book. People have to buy the book in order to get the research.

4) Paid Research - You've conducted research, written a paper and are charging money for a user to come and license it.

1 and 2 lend themselves to somebody who is researching something and is interested in just sharing the research with others.

1, 2 and 3 lend themselves to helping people build recognition for their name or their practice by being recognized as "experts", but they are still interested in making the research available to others for either free or an affordable cost.

4 is for people/companies that have already built the recognition or spent a lot of money conducting the research or both and wish to charge money for the research in order to make a living or recoup the cost of the research. They may also wish to further their recognition or build their practice by being recognized as "experts".

>From a personal standpoint, I think that design/research/information/conferences/etc are way overpriced, oftentimes beyond the reach of the people that are really truly interested and enthusiastic about the information (like students).

>From a business standpoint, I applaud those that are able to make a living and charge high prices. You're the entrepeneurs, the pioneers and the ones holding the overhead and taking the risk.

>From a corporate standpoint, depending on the company, the industry and the budget, depending on the type of research, many companies are still not willing to spend money on certain types of information. My company will spend money for certain market research papers, because we have a budget for that, but not on for user experience papers.

>From a professional standpoint, there is certain information that I would like and am willing to make a business case for so we can get a budget and buy. If it's within an affordable range it's easier for me to make a business case to my boss. If it is out of an affordable range, then it is harder for me to make the business case. In this case, my boss is more interested in purchasing user experience information as it relates to mobile design. There are certain things I know and I don't really feel the urge or the need to go to a conference or take a seminar at $1000 because I can either talk to someone, research it on the web and buy a book. There are other things that I do feel the need to go spend money on and take a class or go to a conference because I think it's important.

Due to the nature that we are a startup (though we have money) and we are trying to start a UX practice, I'd rather spend my budget on important things that matter to my boss and the higher ups and myself and will show ROI, as opposed to just spending money randomly that can necessarily be cost justified or just seems wasteful.

-Wendy

Daniel Szuc <dszuc at apogeehk.com> wrote:
[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]

Currently in the middle of writing and researching a book and it takes time
(and money) and ... Time ;)

We have bought reports from Adaptive, UIE, NNg, Forrester etc and find these
to be a useful supplement to the vast amount of free knowledge already out
there on the web.

In some small way, we also like to support the "paid model" on the web.

Rgds,

Daniel Szuc
Principal Usability Consultant
Apogee Usability Asia Ltd
www.apogeehk.com
'Usability in Asia'

-----Original Message-----
From:
discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com
[mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.
com] On Behalf Of Dan Saffer
Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 4:43 AM
To: ixd-discussion
Subject: Re: [ID Discuss] book recommendation for everyone

[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]

On Jun 15, 2005, at 4:16 PM, Johan Sjostrand wrote:

> Why is knowledge so expensive?

Because it doesn't fall from the sky. Someone has to create and
disseminate it. That's why we're called knowledge *workers* not
knowledge gatherers.

> $395 for a 68p whitepaper? I'm looking forward to hearing someone
> justifying this.

68 pages is not an inconsiderable amount; it's not a blog entry.
Janice had to take the (considerable) time to research and write it.
That time is taken from other commercial endeavors. Thus, she
reasonably wants to be paid for her time. Information may want to be
free, but people want to be paid.

"None but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money." --Samuel Johnson

Dan

Dan Saffer
Sr. Interaction Designer, Adaptive Path http://www.adaptivepath.com
http://www.odannyboy.com

_______________________________________________
Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
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......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
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Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/

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15 Jun 2005 - 6:06pm
Wendy Fischer
2004

Grammar correction:

Due to the nature that we are a startup (though we have money) and we are trying to start a UX practice, I'd rather spend my budget on important things that matter to my boss and the higher ups and myself and will show ROI, as opposed to just spending money randomly on things or activities that can't necessarily be cost justified or just seems wasteful.

In addition:

For me right now the acquistion of knowledge around mobile user experience and ecommerce is key. I can justify that to my boss, because he knows I can take that new knowledge and impart it across the company. On other things, I have the background and experience, he knows it, and because he already figures he's paying me to be the "expert", he's not going to pay for the information or he figures there is an easier, cheaper and faster way to get it into my head and out into a powerpoint slide.

-Wendy

15 Jun 2005 - 7:41pm
Becubed
2004

> When I was at the Adaptive Path workshop at the IA Summit this past
> year,
> they explained why the methods presented in this volume really didn't
> add up
> correctly. I don't remember the details exactly, but their formulation
> of
> either return or investment didn't line up with reality in one way or
> another.

I too attended this workshop at the IA Summit (sat with Dave and Livia,
wouldn't you know it). From what I recall, one of Janice's criticisms
was that the formulations didn't employ standard methods from
accounting: most importantly, they didn't discount future earnings. A
dollar saved next year is worth less than a dollar saved today. To get
taken seriously by people versed in management accounting, we'd need to
use formulas such as NPV (net present value).

--
Robert Barlow-Busch
Interaction Design and Usability Group
Quarry Integrated Communications Inc.
rbarlowbusch at quarry.com
(519) 570-2020

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26 Jun 2005 - 6:58pm
Jay Zipursky
2005

David and any others who've read the AP report...

I followed this thread with interest and just checked out the report's
web page. I see that its audience is the "web design team". That's not
me. I work on client-server production systems for commercial
printers... Our end users are not the people who purchase our products
and their experience takes a back seat. Any ROI justification I would
do has to be aimed at my company's "experience" - e.g., less support or
training costs.

Will this report help me make a business case for more design and
usability resources?

Thanks,
Jay

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesi
> gners.com
> [mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interac
> tiondesigners.com] On Behalf Of David Heller
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 12:16 PM
> To: discuss at ixdg.org
> Subject: Re: [ID Discuss] book recommendation for everyone
>
> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant
> quoted material.]
>
> When I was at the Adaptive Path workshop at the IA Summit
> this past year, they explained why the methods presented in
> this volume really didn't add up correctly. I don't remember
> the details exactly, but their formulation of either return
> or investment didn't line up with reality in one way or another.
>
> BTW, if you are REALLY interested in ROI and your design
> organization and the overall design culture of your
> organization, then I REALLY recommend their whitepaper
> "Leveraging Business Value: How ROI Changes User Experience"
> http://adaptivepath.com/publications/reports/businessvalue/
>
> My only minor complaint is the cost, $395. I think it is
> worth it though and so did my CEO, who is actually now in an
> Exec MBA program at Wharton (Univ.
> Penn).
>
> Enjoy!
>
> -- dave
>
>
> On 6/15/05 3:00 PM, "Wendy Fischer" <erpdesigner at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
> > material.]
> >
> > I'd like to recommend that everybody read the new edition of
> > Cost-Justifying Usability : An Update for the Internet Age.
> >
> > I just finished reading the majority of it, and thought
> that it was an
> > excellent read. While it is a "usability" book, it's a valuable
> > resource for interaction designers also, particularly if
> they have to ROI activities.
> >
> > In addition, there was an excellent chapter that detailed
> how to think
> > about improving internal social return on investment. It
> was Chapter
> > 8: Categories of Return on Investment and Their Practical
> Implications
> > by Chauncey Wilson and Stephanie Rosenbaum. This was a must read
> > chapter for anybody practicing interaction design/UCD
> within a corporate organization.
> >
> > -Wendy
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> > To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options
> > ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/ Announcements List .........
> > http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> > Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org Home
> > ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>
> -- dave
>
> David Heller
> http://synapticburn.com/
> http://ixdg.org/
> Dave (at) ixdg (dot) org
> Dave (at) synapticburn (dot) com
> AIM: bolinhanyc || Y!: dave_ux || MSN: hippiefunk at hotmail.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org Home
> ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>

26 Jun 2005 - 10:09pm
Dave Malouf
2005

Yes most of the AP case studies deal with B2C scenarios on the web, but
one
is 9tu at ly a product design company (industrial + interaction).

While the example don't speak directly to the C/S space or B2B space, I
do
think you can take generalizations from the substance of the entire
report
and apply them to most any UX scenario.

My version of this Generalization is: In companies that that bring the
rigor of ROI out to the UX of the product, the overall ROI actualizes
better. They in fact refuse to say that there is any standad by which to
derive a ROI--e.g. This many usability experts will improve a products
return by X%. They do recommend that measuring success is something that
you should definitely design into your total UX strategy.
David Heller
dave at interactiondesigners.com
htt://www.interactiondesigners.com

27 Jun 2005 - 8:43am
Wendy Fischer
2004

I thought we beat this one with a dead horse, but apparently not.

I really recommend the book, there's a lot of updated materials and lots of case studies. As admitted by Peter Merholz of Adaptive Path, they only looked at the material in the first edition and did not look at the second edition.

There's also more than just chapters on ROI on usability, it looks at the gambit in terms of internationalization, online surveys, etc.

-Wendy

Jay Zipursky <Jay.Zipursky at Creo.com> wrote:
[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]

David and any others who've read the AP report...

I followed this thread with interest and just checked out the report's
web page. I see that its audience is the "web design team". That's not
me. I work on client-server production systems for commercial
printers... Our end users are not the people who purchase our products
and their experience takes a back seat. Any ROI justification I would
do has to be aimed at my company's "experience" - e.g., less support or
training costs.

Will this report help me make a business case for more design and
usability resources?

Thanks,
Jay

> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesi
> gners.com
> [mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interac
> tiondesigners.com] On Behalf Of David Heller
> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 12:16 PM
> To: discuss at ixdg.org
> Subject: Re: [ID Discuss] book recommendation for everyone
>
> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant
> quoted material.]
>
> When I was at the Adaptive Path workshop at the IA Summit
> this past year, they explained why the methods presented in
> this volume really didn't add up correctly. I don't remember
> the details exactly, but their formulation of either return
> or investment didn't line up with reality in one way or another.
>
> BTW, if you are REALLY interested in ROI and your design
> organization and the overall design culture of your
> organization, then I REALLY recommend their whitepaper
> "Leveraging Business Value: How ROI Changes User Experience"
> http://adaptivepath.com/publications/reports/businessvalue/
>
> My only minor complaint is the cost, $395. I think it is
> worth it though and so did my CEO, who is actually now in an
> Exec MBA program at Wharton (Univ.
> Penn).
>
> Enjoy!
>
> -- dave
>
>
> On 6/15/05 3:00 PM, "Wendy Fischer" wrote:
>
> > [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
> > material.]
> >
> > I'd like to recommend that everybody read the new edition of
> > Cost-Justifying Usability : An Update for the Internet Age.
> >
> > I just finished reading the majority of it, and thought
> that it was an
> > excellent read. While it is a "usability" book, it's a valuable
> > resource for interaction designers also, particularly if
> they have to ROI activities.
> >
> > In addition, there was an excellent chapter that detailed
> how to think
> > about improving internal social return on investment. It
> was Chapter
> > 8: Categories of Return on Investment and Their Practical
> Implications
> > by Chauncey Wilson and Stephanie Rosenbaum. This was a must read
> > chapter for anybody practicing interaction design/UCD
> within a corporate organization.
> >
> > -Wendy
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> > To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options
> > ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/ Announcements List .........
> > http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> > Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org Home
> > ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>
> -- dave
>
> David Heller
> http://synapticburn.com/
> http://ixdg.org/
> Dave (at) ixdg (dot) org
> Dave (at) synapticburn (dot) com
> AIM: bolinhanyc || Y!: dave_ux || MSN: hippiefunk at hotmail.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org Home
> ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>
_______________________________________________
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To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
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