what you call "soda" and where you live...

29 Aug 2005 - 9:48am
8 years ago
37 replies
1304 reads
ldebett
2004

a fun info vis for Americans... (watch out for the the links that have map
rollover behavior too)

http://www.popvssoda.com/

what is your preference???

~Lisa

Comments

29 Aug 2005 - 9:53am
Dave Malouf
2005

Hmm? While it is not an exact correlation there is also an affinity that can
be drawn from red state:blue state to pop/coke:soda
Hmmm?

-- dave

On 8/29/05 10:48 AM, "Lisa deBettencourt" <ldebett at gmail.com> wrote:

> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
> a fun info vis for Americans... (watch out for the the links that have map
> rollover behavior too)
>
> http://www.popvssoda.com/
>
> what is your preference???
>
> ~Lisa
> _______________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
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> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/

-- dave

David Heller
http://synapticburn.com/
http://ixdg.org/
Dave (at) ixdg (dot) org
Dave (at) synapticburn (dot) com
AIM: bolinhanyc || Y!: dave_ux || MSN: hippiefunk at hotmail.com

29 Aug 2005 - 10:06am
Jared M. Spool
2003

I thought that too, at first, but I think it doesn't quite work that way.

When I was recently in Chattanooga, I realized they called all soda "coke".
Someone in my party actually ordered a coke and the waitress said, "What
kind?" "What are my choices?" was my colleagues response, which ellicted a
list, "Pepsi, Coke, Mountain Dew, Sprite, or Root Beer." It didn't seem to
phase anybody but me that you had to ask for Coke twice to get an actual Coke.

Who says we have to go over national boundaries to find cultural differences.

(Now, don't ask me what they call a milkshake here in New England. Hint: It
ain't "milkshake." I've been in for 26 years and I still don't get it.)

Jared

At 10:53 AM 8/29/2005, David Heller wrote:

>[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
>Hmm? While it is not an exact correlation there is also an affinity that can
>be drawn from red state:blue state to pop/coke:soda
>Hmmm?
>
>-- dave
>
>
>On 8/29/05 10:48 AM, "Lisa deBettencourt" <ldebett at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
> >
> > a fun info vis for Americans... (watch out for the the links that have map
> > rollover behavior too)
> >
> > http://www.popvssoda.com/
> >
> > what is your preference???
> >
> > ~Lisa
> > _______________________________________________
> > Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> > To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> > (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
> > Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> > Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
> > Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>
>-- dave
>
>David Heller
>http://synapticburn.com/
>http://ixdg.org/
>Dave (at) ixdg (dot) org
>Dave (at) synapticburn (dot) com
>AIM: bolinhanyc || Y!: dave_ux || MSN: hippiefunk at hotmail.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
>To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
>(Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
>Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
>Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
>Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/

Jared M. Spool, Founding Principal, User Interface Engineering
4 Lookout Lane, Unit 4d, Middleton, MA 01949
978 777-9123 jspool at uie.com http://www.uie.com
Blog: http://www.uie.com/brainsparks

29 Aug 2005 - 10:52am
Todd Warfel
2003

Yeah, that was something I had to get used to in Boston. You ask for
a Milkshake and you really will get shaken milk - not at all what I
expected.

On Aug 29, 2005, at 11:06 AM, Jared M. Spool wrote:

> (Now, don't ask me what they call a milkshake here in New England.
> Hint: It ain't "milkshake." I've been in for 26 years and I still
> don't get it.)

Cheers!

Todd R. Warfel
Design & Usability Specialist
--------------------------------------
Contact Info
Email: twarfel at mac.com
AIM: twarfel at mac.com
Blog: http://toddwarfel.com
--------------------------------------

29 Aug 2005 - 11:20am
ldebett
2004

LOL!!! My mother (from RI) calls a milkshake a "cabinet" or something like
that. Then there's a frappe (ice cream, milk and syrup whipped together), a
float (soda with floating scoops of ice cream), and another one that has
malt in it that I can't remember the name of. Maybe that's the milkshake
one? Or just a shake? But then I think a "shake" is more like a "frappe" (I
think) than a milkshake.

Heck, I'm a native New Englander and I don't even know for sure!!! ;-)

I also discovered the "pop" thing in upstate New York where I went to
college. Asking for a "soda" in a restaurant will get you soda water (ick!).

~Lisa

On 8/29/05, Jared M. Spool <jspool at uie.com> wrote:
>
> I thought that too, at first, but I think it doesn't quite work that way.
>
> When I was recently in Chattanooga, I realized they called all soda
> "coke".
> Someone in my party actually ordered a coke and the waitress said, "What
> kind?" "What are my choices?" was my colleagues response, which ellicted a
> list, "Pepsi, Coke, Mountain Dew, Sprite, or Root Beer." It didn't seem to
> phase anybody but me that you had to ask for Coke twice to get an actual
> Coke.
>
> Who says we have to go over national boundaries to find cultural
> differences.
>
> (Now, don't ask me what they call a milkshake here in New England. Hint:
> It
> ain't "milkshake." I've been in for 26 years and I still don't get it.)
>
> Jared
>
>
>

29 Aug 2005 - 11:33am
Coryndon Luxmoore
2004

Don't forget the RI favorite...Coffee Milk

Form my experience the "Cabinet" tends to have more icecream than a
regular milk shake. But I might just be falling for the spin....

Finally as a former VA boy i can certainly attest to the Coke phenomena
very confusing from the outside.

--Coryndon

--------------------------------------------
Coryndon Luxmoore
Interaction Designer

coryndon (at) luxmoore (dot) com
---------------------------------------------
On Aug 29, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Lisa deBettencourt wrote:

> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
> material.]
>
> LOL!!! My mother (from RI) calls a milkshake a "cabinet" or something
> like
> that. Then there's a frappe (ice cream, milk and syrup whipped
> together), a
> float (soda with floating scoops of ice cream), and another one that
> has
> malt in it that I can't remember the name of. Maybe that's the
> milkshake
> one? Or just a shake? But then I think a "shake" is more like a
> "frappe" (I
> think) than a milkshake.
>
> Heck, I'm a native New Englander and I don't even know for sure!!! ;-)
>
> I also discovered the "pop" thing in upstate New York where I went to
> college. Asking for a "soda" in a restaurant will get you soda water
> (ick!).
>
>
> ~Lisa
>
> On 8/29/05, Jared M. Spool <jspool at uie.com> wrote:
>>
>> I thought that too, at first, but I think it doesn't quite work that
>> way.
>>
>> When I was recently in Chattanooga, I realized they called all soda
>> "coke".
>> Someone in my party actually ordered a coke and the waitress said,
>> "What
>> kind?" "What are my choices?" was my colleagues response, which
>> ellicted a
>> list, "Pepsi, Coke, Mountain Dew, Sprite, or Root Beer." It didn't
>> seem to
>> phase anybody but me that you had to ask for Coke twice to get an
>> actual
>> Coke.
>>
>> Who says we have to go over national boundaries to find cultural
>> differences.
>>
>> (Now, don't ask me what they call a milkshake here in New England.
>> Hint:
>> It
>> ain't "milkshake." I've been in for 26 years and I still don't get
>> it.)
>>
>> Jared
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
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> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>

29 Aug 2005 - 11:34am
Alain D. M. G. ...
2003

The question is, is there some kind of coherence under it? Is there an
area in the US where regionalisms are much stronger and much more
widespread? Is there a social or technological domain where the
intensity of divergences from "basic English" is greater, or even
complete?

For instance, if I go to the UK I can expect that all of the terms
relating to a motor vehicle will be radically different from those in
Canada. Eg, boot, bonnet, mapcase, and so on, instead of trunk, hood
glove compartment, and so on.

Alain Vaillancourt

--- Lisa deBettencourt <ldebett at gmail.com> a écrit :

> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
> material.]
>
> LOL!!! My mother (from RI) calls a milkshake a "cabinet" or something
> like
> that. Then there's a frappe (ice cream, milk and syrup whipped
> together), a
> float (soda with floating scoops of ice cream), and another one that
> has
> malt in it that I can't remember the name of. Maybe that's the
> milkshake
> one? Or just a shake? But then I think a "shake" is more like a
> "frappe" (I
> think) than a milkshake.
>
> Heck, I'm a native New Englander and I don't even know for sure!!!
> ;-)
>
> I also discovered the "pop" thing in upstate New York where I went to
>
> college. Asking for a "soda" in a restaurant will get you soda water
> (ick!).
>
>
> ~Lisa
>
> On 8/29/05, Jared M. Spool <jspool at uie.com> wrote:
> >
> > I thought that too, at first, but I think it doesn't quite work
> that way.
> >
> > When I was recently in Chattanooga, I realized they called all soda
>
> > "coke".
> > Someone in my party actually ordered a coke and the waitress said,
> "What
> > kind?" "What are my choices?" was my colleagues response, which
> ellicted a
> > list, "Pepsi, Coke, Mountain Dew, Sprite, or Root Beer." It didn't
> seem to
> > phase anybody but me that you had to ask for Coke twice to get an
> actual
> > Coke.
> >
> > Who says we have to go over national boundaries to find cultural
> > differences.
> >
> > (Now, don't ask me what they call a milkshake here in New England.
> Hint:
> > It
> > ain't "milkshake." I've been in for 26 years and I still don't get
> it.)
> >
> > Jared
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>

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29 Aug 2005 - 11:35am
Rajesh Sidharthan
2005

I walked into a grocery store in India and asked for toothpaste.
The shop keeper did not seem to understand what I wanted. And when he
realized, he said.. "Ooh Colgate?... What kind??"

All toothpaste is called 'Colgate'. Followed by a list.. Pepsodent,
Crest, Oral-B....

We make 'Xerox' copies instead of 'Photo copies'
We use 'Scotch' tapes instead of 'cellophane tapes'
And many more...

Jared M. Spool wrote:

> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
> material.]
>
> I thought that too, at first, but I think it doesn't quite work that way.
>
> When I was recently in Chattanooga, I realized they called all soda
> "coke". Someone in my party actually ordered a coke and the waitress
> said, "What kind?" "What are my choices?" was my colleagues response,
> which ellicted a list, "Pepsi, Coke, Mountain Dew, Sprite, or Root
> Beer." It didn't seem to phase anybody but me that you had to ask for
> Coke twice to get an actual Coke.
>
> Who says we have to go over national boundaries to find cultural
> differences.
>
> (Now, don't ask me what they call a milkshake here in New England.
> Hint: It ain't "milkshake." I've been in for 26 years and I still
> don't get it.)
>
> Jared
>
> At 10:53 AM 8/29/2005, David Heller wrote:
>
>> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
>> material.]
>>
>> Hmm? While it is not an exact correlation there is also an affinity
>> that can
>> be drawn from red state:blue state to pop/coke:soda
>> Hmmm?
>>
>> -- dave
>>
>>
>> On 8/29/05 10:48 AM, "Lisa deBettencourt" <ldebett at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
>> material.]
>> >
>> > a fun info vis for Americans... (watch out for the the links that
>> have map
>> > rollover behavior too)
>> >
>> > http://www.popvssoda.com/
>> >
>> > what is your preference???
>> >
>> > ~Lisa
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
>> > To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
>> > (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
>> > Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
>> > Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
>> > Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>>
>> -- dave
>>
>> David Heller
>> http://synapticburn.com/
>> http://ixdg.org/
>> Dave (at) ixdg (dot) org
>> Dave (at) synapticburn (dot) com
>> AIM: bolinhanyc || Y!: dave_ux || MSN: hippiefunk at hotmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
>> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
>> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
>> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
>> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
>> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>
>
> Jared M. Spool, Founding Principal, User Interface Engineering
> 4 Lookout Lane, Unit 4d, Middleton, MA 01949
> 978 777-9123 jspool at uie.com http://www.uie.com
> Blog: http://www.uie.com/brainsparks
>
> _______________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/

29 Aug 2005 - 12:12pm
Stewart Dean
2004

Be careful of cultural differences.

Just as in Inidia they use Colgate but elsewhere they use toothpaste so in
the US they may use Xerox but in the uk it's 'photocopy' and we don't ask
if someone has any 'scotch tape' but if they have any 'sellotape' (even it's
made by scotch). It's dangerous to make assumptions about labels in systems
as they are very culturaly dependent (stating the obvious I know).

Now it may appear all these labels indicate there's a huge difference in
cultures around the world. There's not in what I've experienced. People
often do the same things but use different names. In my view task and
function alter very little outside of legal requirements around the world.

It has all kinds of connotations and with so many interfaces using words to
organise things you essentialy build cultural barriers in, something I feel
is only amplified by methods such as card sorting.

Oh in the UK - it's 'soft drink' or if you're further up north 'pop'.

Stew Dean

>From: Rajesh Sidharthan <rajesh.sidharthan at oracle.com>
>To: "Jared M. Spool" <jspool at uie.com>
>CC: Lisa deBettencourt
><ldebett at gmail.com>,discuss-interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com
>Subject: Re: [ID Discuss] what you call "soda" and where you live...
>Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2005 09:35:11 -0700
>
>[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
>I walked into a grocery store in India and asked for toothpaste.
>The shop keeper did not seem to understand what I wanted. And when he
>realized, he said.. "Ooh Colgate?... What kind??"
>
>All toothpaste is called 'Colgate'. Followed by a list.. Pepsodent, Crest,
>Oral-B....
>
>We make 'Xerox' copies instead of 'Photo copies'
>We use 'Scotch' tapes instead of 'cellophane tapes'
>And many more...
>
>Jared M. Spool wrote:
>
>>[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
>>material.]
>>
>>I thought that too, at first, but I think it doesn't quite work that way.
>>
>>When I was recently in Chattanooga, I realized they called all soda
>>"coke". Someone in my party actually ordered a coke and the waitress said,
>>"What kind?" "What are my choices?" was my colleagues response, which
>>ellicted a list, "Pepsi, Coke, Mountain Dew, Sprite, or Root Beer." It
>>didn't seem to phase anybody but me that you had to ask for Coke twice to
>>get an actual Coke.
>>
>>Who says we have to go over national boundaries to find cultural
>>differences.
>>
>>(Now, don't ask me what they call a milkshake here in New England. Hint:
>>It ain't "milkshake." I've been in for 26 years and I still don't get it.)
>>
>>Jared
>>
>>At 10:53 AM 8/29/2005, David Heller wrote:
>>
>>>[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
>>>material.]
>>>
>>>Hmm? While it is not an exact correlation there is also an affinity that
>>>can
>>>be drawn from red state:blue state to pop/coke:soda
>>>Hmmm?
>>>
>>>-- dave
>>>
>>>
>>>On 8/29/05 10:48 AM, "Lisa deBettencourt" <ldebett at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
>>>material.]
>>> >
>>> > a fun info vis for Americans... (watch out for the the links that have
>>>map
>>> > rollover behavior too)
>>> >
>>> > http://www.popvssoda.com/
>>> >
>>> > what is your preference???
>>> >
>>> > ~Lisa
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
>>> > To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
>>> > (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
>>> > Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
>>> > Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
>>> > Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>>>
>>>-- dave
>>>
>>>David Heller
>>>http://synapticburn.com/
>>>http://ixdg.org/
>>>Dave (at) ixdg (dot) org
>>>Dave (at) synapticburn (dot) com
>>>AIM: bolinhanyc || Y!: dave_ux || MSN: hippiefunk at hotmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
>>>To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
>>>(Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
>>>Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
>>>Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
>>>Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>>
>>
>>Jared M. Spool, Founding Principal, User Interface Engineering
>>4 Lookout Lane, Unit 4d, Middleton, MA 01949
>>978 777-9123 jspool at uie.com http://www.uie.com
>>Blog: http://www.uie.com/brainsparks
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
>>To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
>>(Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
>>Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
>>Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
>>Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
>To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
>(Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
>Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
>Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
>Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/

29 Aug 2005 - 12:24pm
Jack L. Moffett
2005

And here's an Interaction Design-related example:

In Tennessee, people don't "push" buttons, they "mash" them. I am picturing
a localized software manual...

They also call water fountains (drinking fountains) "bubblers."

Jack

Jack L. Moffett
Interaction Designer
inmedius
412.690.2360 x219
http://www.inmedius.com

The World is not set up to facilitate the best
any more than it is set up to facilitate the worst.
It doesn't depend on brilliance or innovation
because if it did, the system would be unpredictable.
It requires averages and predictables.

So, good deeds and brilliant ideas go against the
grain of the social contract almost by definition.
They will be challenged and will require
enormous effort to succeed.

Most fail.
- Michael McDonough

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29 Aug 2005 - 12:29pm
Adrian Howard
2005

On 29 Aug 2005, at 17:34, Alain D. M. G. Vaillancourt wrote:
[snip]
> For instance, if I go to the UK I can expect that all of the terms
> relating to a motor vehicle will be radically different from those in
> Canada. Eg, boot, bonnet, mapcase, and so on, instead of trunk, hood
> glove compartment, and so on.
[snip]

My favourite bit of separated-by-the-same-language was seeing the
confusion wrought during the UK evaluation of a fitness web site that
referenced a book called "Firm Fannies".

(for those who don't know in the UK fanny refers to.... erm...
thinking of the spam filters... well only women have them let's put
it that way)

Adrian

29 Aug 2005 - 12:38pm
Katie Albers
2005

In the US what you call fizzy-flavored-sugar-water turns out to be
originally very highly regionalized, and has become a fairly good way
to track who moved from where to where. It's also a fairly intact set
of terms in places that people seldom move *to* and much of New
England, at least, falls into that category.

"Coke" as a generic term started in the South, right around Atlanta,
as did Coca Cola
"Soda", "Pop" and "Soda Pop" have always enjoyed broader use, each is
tied, originally, to a particular part of the country.

As a New Enland girl myself, I've always been fond of "Tonic" which
is used nowhere else in the country, but harkens back to the origins
of the stuff as a health drink.

To the best of my knowledge, "cabinet" is an exclusively Rhode Island
term for an ice cream and flavor and milk drink. "Frappe" is pretty
safe anywhere in New England. "Milkshake" will always get you
flavored milk - shaken.

Is it important to us? Yes, because certain terms will get you blank
looks in certain parts of the USA. "Coke", "Soda" and "Tonic" can
each get you something you don't want if you're in certain parts of
the country. Terminology is important, and if you fail to understand
the local, regional language you can wind up with people firmly
convinced they understand an exchange only to stare blankly at a
beverage which they are absolutely certain they didn't order.

The main point, is don't assume that you know the local terminology.
If can be far more complicated than you understood it to be. It
nothing else, you need to cautious that you don't accidentally use a
word that means something different than you thought.

k

At 12:34 PM -0400 8/29/05, Alain D. M. G. Vaillancourt wrote:
>[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
>The question is, is there some kind of coherence under it? Is there an
>area in the US where regionalisms are much stronger and much more
>widespread? Is there a social or technological domain where the
>intensity of divergences from "basic English" is greater, or even
>complete?
>
>For instance, if I go to the UK I can expect that all of the terms
>relating to a motor vehicle will be radically different from those in
>Canada. Eg, boot, bonnet, mapcase, and so on, instead of trunk, hood
>glove compartment, and so on.
>
>Alain Vaillancourt

--
Katie Albers
User Experience Consultant
310 581 3024

29 Aug 2005 - 12:42pm
Mark Schindler
2003

> nothing else, you need to cautious that you don't accidentally use a
> word that means something different than you thought.
>

Maybe a picture would be better.
-Mark

Mark Schindler | Visual i|o

29 Aug 2005 - 1:23pm
Juan Lanus
2005

On 8/29/05, Mark Schindler <mbs at edits.com> wrote:
> Maybe a picture would be better.
I think this is the idea behind McDonald's and the like: the kid at
first only has to point at the picture and say "Ugh!".
This makes them sure that WTSIWTG (What they see is what theg get).
If you are 14 years old and don't have muh experience dealing with
waiters it's safe.
IMO this is a great example of menu usability (here a "menu" is a list
of choices specially in restaurants).
McDonalds' lists are much ore usable than your favorite french
restautant's and maybe this is the secret.
--
Juan Lanus
TECNOSOL
Argentina

BTW here those spooky beverages are now "gaseosas" (gaseous in literal
translation) but only due to the TV avoiding to mention a brand during
the last not-so-many years.

29 Aug 2005 - 1:35pm
Katie Albers
2005

At 1:42 PM -0400 8/29/05, Mark Schindler wrote:
> > nothing else, you need to cautious that you don't accidentally use a
>> word that means something different than you thought.
>>
>
>Maybe a picture would be better.
>-Mark
>
>Mark Schindler | Visual i|o

Well, that's an interesting idea. what picture would distinguish
between Root Beer and Coca Cola? or coffeemilk and a milkshake? Or in
New York City, between an ice cream soda (sometimes called a soda)
and an egg cream?

--
Katie Albers
User Experience Consultant
310 581 3024

29 Aug 2005 - 2:00pm
Jack L. Moffett
2005

Hmm. Can a particular drink be defined by the container in which it is
served?

> what picture would distinguish between Root Beer and Coca Cola?
The silhouette of a coke bottle vs. that of a Root Beer mug.

> or coffeemilk and a milkshake?
The silhouette of a coffee mug vs. that of a tall, pedestalled glass with a
straw.

> Or in New York City, between an ice cream soda (sometimes called a soda) and
> an egg cream?
The silhouette of a glass topped with a scoop of ice cream and a strqw vs.
that of... I don't know what an egg cream is, let alone what it's served in!

Jack

Jack L. Moffett
Interaction Designer
inmedius
412.690.2360 x219
http://www.inmedius.com

To design is much more than simply
to assemble, to order, or even to edit;
it is to add value and meaning,
to illuminate, to simplify, to clarify,
to modify, to dignify, to dramatize,
to persuade, and perhaps even to amuse.

- Paul Rand

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29 Aug 2005 - 2:08pm
Mark Schindler
2003

Some kind of notation-- branding, labeling-- would doubtless be needed to
remove any trace of ambiguity in your examples, Katie. My point, perhaps a
bit flip, was not that we need to reduce such interactions to grunting and
pointing, but that quite often a picture can serve to establish a common
cultural frame.
-Mark Schindler

> >Maybe a picture would be better.
> >-Mark
> >
> >Mark Schindler | Visual i|o
>
> Well, that's an interesting idea. what picture would distinguish
> between Root Beer and Coca Cola? or coffeemilk and a milkshake? Or in
> New York City, between an ice cream soda (sometimes called a soda)
> and an egg cream?
>
> --
> Katie Albers

29 Aug 2005 - 2:25pm
Katie Albers
2005

>[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]

Actually, of course, what they do in McDonalds and such places is let
customers serve themselves. so they don't have to deal with any
questions of flavor vs. type or such vs. terminology

>Hmm. Can a particular drink be defined by the container in which it is
>served?
>
>> what picture would distinguish between Root Beer and Coca Cola?
>The silhouette of a coke bottle vs. that of a Root Beer mug.

And if they serve another variety of cola? or if you don't want to be
sued by Coca Cola which has the shape of that bottle trade marked?

> > or coffeemilk and a milkshake?
>The silhouette of a coffee mug vs. that of a tall, pedestalled glass with a
>straw.

Ah! you see...that's the point, a coffeemilk is not necessarily a
coffee with milk. It's often a flavor of milkshake (the kind with no
ice cream)

> > Or in New York City, between an ice cream soda (sometimes called
>a soda) and
>> an egg cream?
>The silhouette of a glass topped with a scoop of ice cream and a strqw vs.
>that of... I don't know what an egg cream is, let alone what it's served in!

It's an ice cream soda without ice cream. It has neither cream nor egg.

The point is that while it may be true that a picture is worth 1000
words, you need to be very sure that you know which 1000 words
--
Katie Albers
User Experience Consultant

29 Aug 2005 - 2:44pm
ldebett
2004

Cultural colloquialisms are everywhere... hood & bonnet, soda and tonic,
colgate and toothpaste, grinders and subs, pizzas and pies, fannies and
butts, butts and cigarettes, cigarettes and fags (one I was dumbfounded by
when I lived in Australia), kleenex and tissues... I could go on and on and
on. I'm always entertained and fascinated by them and especially any
discussion that ensues between two people who are both convinced that they
know the "right" name for something. ;-)

This is also similar to a the discussion we were having with a colleague
today at lunch who is colorblind. What we saw as a dark red, he swore was
grey-black. Even in vision, how is it that I "know" what color something is
when what I see may be different than what you see? It's my reality vs.
yours, I suppose.

So, if you order a milkshake in Boston, have a good laugh at the situation
when you get some good cold shaken milk. At least the server will be more
likely to dump it and make what you really want. Then again, maybe if you
try it, you might like it! ;-)

~Lisa

29 Aug 2005 - 2:52pm
Dave Malouf
2005

So the question is how to mitigate micro-cultural linguistic idiosynchrosies
within applications.

Question?

Can someone someone from a "pop" state (you know who you are; but please
exclude yourself if you say "soda pop", which I know a small minority of
folks say) what is the colloquial name for a vending machine that has said
fizzy-sweetened, usually artificially colored beverage in it?

- dave

29 Aug 2005 - 2:53pm
Elizabeth Buie
2004

>So, if you order a milkshake in Boston, have a good laugh at the
situation
>when you get some good cold shaken milk.

And if you order a "latte" in Italy, be prepared to be handed a glass of
milk! :-)
(The name of the drink is "caffè latte".)

Elizabeth
--
Elizabeth Buie
Computer Sciences Corporation
Rockville, Maryland, USA
+1.301.921.3326

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29 Aug 2005 - 2:58pm
sylvania
2005

That's definitely a "pop machine."

(Sylvania in Michigan)

-----Original Message-----
From:
discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com
[mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesign
ers.com] On Behalf Of David Heller
Sent: 29 August 2005 15:53
To: discuss-interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com
Subject: Re: [ID Discuss] what you call "soda" and where you live...

[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted
material.]

So the question is how to mitigate micro-cultural linguistic
idiosynchrosies within applications.

Question?

Can someone someone from a "pop" state (you know who you are; but please
exclude yourself if you say "soda pop", which I know a small minority of
folks say) what is the colloquial name for a vending machine that has
said fizzy-sweetened, usually artificially colored beverage in it?

- dave

_______________________________________________
Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org (Un)Subscription Options
... http://discuss.ixdg.org/ Announcements List .........
http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
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http://ixdg.org/

29 Aug 2005 - 2:58pm
HUGE | Monique Saran
2005

It's definitely a pop machine.

-monique

-----Original Message-----
From:
discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.com
[mailto:discuss-interactiondesigners.com-bounces at lists.interactiondesigners.
com] On Behalf Of David Heller
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 3:53 PM
To: discuss-interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com
Subject: Re: [ID Discuss] what you call "soda" and where you live...

[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]

So the question is how to mitigate micro-cultural linguistic idiosynchrosies
within applications.

Question?

Can someone someone from a "pop" state (you know who you are; but please
exclude yourself if you say "soda pop", which I know a small minority of
folks say) what is the colloquial name for a vending machine that has said
fizzy-sweetened, usually artificially colored beverage in it?

- dave

_______________________________________________
Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
(Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
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29 Aug 2005 - 3:20pm
ldebett
2004

Very very true.

When you're working on an Information Architecture (that feeds iconography,
etc.), you do really need to be careful of your labeling and terminology.
Somehow you very much need to be aware of your own use of vocabulary and of
your (bad?) habits. Some regional markers and colloquialisms are so deeply
embedded that they actually *do* seem - to the person speaking them - to be
the accurate and correct label.

~Lisa

On 8/29/05, kt <k8a at firstthought.com> wrote:
>
> Whenever we're working we need to remain
> aware that what we believe is the standard, universal term, may be a
> regional term, or at least be incomprehensible to some people.
>
> katie
>
>

29 Aug 2005 - 3:34pm
Katie Albers
2005

I admit that the issue of "what do you call the fizzy flavored water"
is very narrow. It is, however, a particularly dramatic illustration
of an issue when coming up with taxonomies or even icons. Also, they
aren't actually colloquialisms, which are terms used in placed of the
"real" term, they're regional terms.

In fact, referring to these as colloquialisms is also an illustration
of the problem. Is assumes that there is an overarching term that is
universally understood, but this particular word is preferred by some
people as a regional marker. Whenever we're working we need to remain
aware that what we believe is the standard, universal term, may be a
regional term, or at least be incomprehensible to some people.

katie

At 3:44 PM -0400 8/29/05, Lisa deBettencourt wrote:
>[Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
>Cultural colloquialisms are everywhere... hood & bonnet, soda and tonic,
>colgate and toothpaste, grinders and subs, pizzas and pies, fannies and
>butts, butts and cigarettes, cigarettes and fags (one I was dumbfounded by
>when I lived in Australia), kleenex and tissues... I could go on and on and
>on. I'm always entertained and fascinated by them and especially any
>discussion that ensues between two people who are both convinced that they
>know the "right" name for something. ;-)
>
>This is also similar to a the discussion we were having with a colleague
>today at lunch who is colorblind. What we saw as a dark red, he swore was
>grey-black. Even in vision, how is it that I "know" what color something is
>when what I see may be different than what you see? It's my reality vs.
>yours, I suppose.
>
>So, if you order a milkshake in Boston, have a good laugh at the situation
>when you get some good cold shaken milk. At least the server will be more
>likely to dump it and make what you really want. Then again, maybe if you
>try it, you might like it! ;-)
>
>~Lisa
>_______________________________________________
>Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
>To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
>(Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
>Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
>Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
>Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/

--
Katie Albers
User Experience Consultant

29 Aug 2005 - 3:43pm
Beth Osnato
2004

Which of course leads to the same conversation in the visual context
versus the verbal. At the Van Gogh museum in Amsterdam, I was puzzled by
a sign that appeared to be visually telling me that flowers were
prohibited. Someone finally explained to me that what looked to me like
a bouquet was in fact a cone of pommes frite, and meant that *food* was
verboten.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Schindler [mailto:mbs at edits.com]
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 1:43 PM
To: discuss-interactiondesigners.com at lists.interactiondesigners.com;
Katie Albers
Subject: Re: [ID Discuss] what you call "soda" and where you live...

> nothing else, you need to cautious that you don't accidentally use a
> word that means something different than you thought.
>

Maybe a picture would be better.
-Mark

Mark Schindler | Visual i|o

29 Aug 2005 - 5:58pm
Peter Bagnall
2003

On 29 Aug 2005, at 17:34, Alain D. M. G. Vaillancourt wrote:
> For instance, if I go to the UK I can expect that all of the terms
> relating to a motor vehicle will be radically different from those in
> Canada. Eg, boot, bonnet, mapcase, and so on, instead of trunk, hood
> glove compartment, and so on.

I'd stick with glove compartment (or glove box) in the UK. Never heard
anyone here say mapcase yet.

Oh, and just to add another UK voice to the pop/soda debate - fizzy
drink is the term I grew up with. Asking for orange juice with lemonade
also never worked in the US. In the UK lemonade often means fizzy
water, which generally has never been anywhere close to a lemon in it's
life. So what I really wanted was fizzy OJ, what I generally got was a
blank look (until I learnt the local lingo).

You also get these issues with some books which are translated from
English (British definition) to American. I have a couple of Harry
Potter books which I got in the US, and a couple I got in the UK. The
vocabulary is different enough to be noticeable - an example would be
jumper[UK]/sweater[US]. Does anyone know how common it is for
publishers to translate from English to American? I assume that with
non-fiction they don't bother - but for fiction I imagine it can be
quite important to the mood of the book.

--Pete

-------------------------------------------------------------
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding
of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they
are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of
patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the
same in any country.
--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials

Peter Bagnall - http://people.surfaceeffect.com/pete/

29 Aug 2005 - 7:01pm
Lada Gorlenko
2004

PB> Does anyone know how common it is for publishers to translate from
PB> English to American? I assume that with non-fiction they don't
PB> bother - but for fiction I imagine it can be quite important to
PB> the mood of the book.

>From what I know, translation (or, rather, editing) from English to
American and back is quite common. Harry Potter is a good example of
that indeed. They didn't only translate "jumpers" into "sweaters",
they also introduced key English terms into the American version with
annotations absent in the original British text. The one that springs
into mind is "headmaster" (more commonly known as "principal" in the
US): the US text contains a couple of extra lines of a dialogue with
Ron explaining the term to Harry (not in the UK version).

Coming back to the design issues, UK/US design requirements can
significantly vary and should be taken seriously (and I am not even
touching car design, mind you). A trivial example. Last year, I worked
with supermarket self-service checkouts developed by a US
manufacturer. The manufacturer didn't want to spend any extra money on
"British adaptation" of hardware, because they've "done all testing"
in the US. Well, they were in for a surprise. Things as simple as cash
acceptors/dispensers had to be of different capacity in the UK,
because, apparently, British shoppers pay cash for smaller grocery
purchases much more often then their American counterparts. UK cash
acceptors got full much faster and UK dispensers could not cope with
the amount of change required throughout the day. This led to
supermarket managers being very unhappy, because for security reasons
cash boxes had to be changed once a day only, and stores often ended
up with malfunctioning equipment at the busiest evening hours.

They say to-may-to, we say to-mä-to...

Lada

29 Aug 2005 - 6:34pm
Nancy Broden
2005

On 8/29/05, Peter Bagnall <pete at surfaceeffect.com> wrote:

> You also get these issues with some books which are translated from
> English (British definition) to American. I have a couple of Harry
> Potter books which I got in the US, and a couple I got in the UK. The
> vocabulary is different enough to be noticeable - an example would be
> jumper[UK]/sweater[US]. Does anyone know how common it is for
> publishers to translate from English to American? I assume that with
> non-fiction they don't bother - but for fiction I imagine it can be
> quite important to the mood of the book.

I, for one, hope it isn't a common practice. If I were an author I
would freak if the publisher suggested changing the vocabulary to suit
the audience. The language an author chooses (or does not choose) to
use is integral to a work of fiction. I would hope - naively, I'm sure
- that Americans could expand their linguistic horizons to include
"jumper" for "sweater". Growing up in Canada we had to learn British
and American lexical variations (sometimes in addition to the Canadian
vocabulary for certain things) - it isn't that hard to do.

-- Nancy
--------------------------------------
nancy.broden at gmail.com

29 Aug 2005 - 9:17pm
Dan Zlotnikov
2004

<SNIP>
> > Does anyone know how common it is for
> > publishers to translate from English to American? I assume that with
> > non-fiction they don't bother - but for fiction I imagine it can be
> > quite important to the mood of the book.
>
> I, for one, hope it isn't a common practice. If I were an author I
> would freak if the publisher suggested changing the vocabulary to suit
> the audience. The language an author chooses (or does not choose) to
> use is integral to a work of fiction. <SNIP>

A very common practice, unfortunately.

"It's not Brits who think American readers are a bunch of whinging
morons with the geo-social understanding of a wire coathanger, it's
American editors."

-- Setting the record straight (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)
(grabbed from http://www.ie.lspace.org/books/pqf/)

(For those who aren't familiar, Terry Pratchett is a British humour
fantasy novelist, who may or may not have recently lost the title of
"Britain's best-selling novelist" to JK Rowling)

Dan

--
WatCHI
http://www.acm.org/chapters/watchi

30 Aug 2005 - 8:49am
Jack L. Moffett
2005

Nancy wrote:
> I would hope - naively, I'm sure - that Americans could expand their
> linguistic horizons to include "jumper" for "sweater".

I gladly, and with great interest, try to do so. However, while reading a
work of fiction, and I'll continue with the given example of Harry Potter,
the reader will not necessarily have access to the definition of a term, or
even know that they have misunderstood it. For Americans, a "jumper" is
still an article of clothing, typically an all-in-one outfit, like overalls.
So, in the context of the "sweater" that Harry receives for Christmas from
Mrs. Weasley, I may not realize that I have misunderstood the meaning of the
term, and picture Harry and Ron with knitted, "American-type" jumpers. This,
of course, would make no sense, and seem rather ridiculous. I would have to
go back and re-read the scene to know for sure whether or not I could have
deduced that a "jumper" is a British "sweater."

I did notice that some of the terms that were translated in the novels were
not translated for the movies. The American issue of Sorcerer's Stone (They
changed the title as well!) uses the term "boogers," whereas the British
word "bogies" is used in the movie. This example I learned from, as there
was certainly enough context to understand. The term "snogging" was easily
understood, and not translated, in the most recent book.

Jack

Jack L. Moffett
Interaction Designer
inmedius
412.690.2360 x219
http://www.inmedius.com

Form follows function -
that has been misunderstood.
Form and function should be one,
joined in a spiritual union.

- Frank Lloyd Wright

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30 Aug 2005 - 8:56am
Elizabeth Buie
2004

Jack Moffett writes:

>the reader will not necessarily have access to the definition of a term,
or
>even know that they have misunderstood it.

Absolutely. I remember being confused about waving fields of "corn" in
British children's books. I was 35 before I discovered that they were
referring to oats.

Elizabeth
--
Elizabeth Buie
Computer Sciences Corporation
Rockville, Maryland, USA
+1.301.921.3326

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30 Aug 2005 - 6:01am
Tori Egherman
2005

Back to the soda or pop question:

When I was a kid, my dad took us to Chicago Delis where we ordered
phosphates.(http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=phosphate) Guess
that makes my dad an "other."

Tori

On 8/30/05, Dan Zlotnikov <whatsinaname at gmail.com> wrote:
> [Please voluntarily trim replies to include only relevant quoted material.]
>
> <SNIP>
> > > Does anyone know how common it is for
> > > publishers to translate from English to American? I assume that with
> > > non-fiction they don't bother - but for fiction I imagine it can be
> > > quite important to the mood of the book.
> >
> > I, for one, hope it isn't a common practice. If I were an author I
> > would freak if the publisher suggested changing the vocabulary to suit
> > the audience. The language an author chooses (or does not choose) to
> > use is integral to a work of fiction. <SNIP>
>
> A very common practice, unfortunately.
>
> "It's not Brits who think American readers are a bunch of whinging
> morons with the geo-social understanding of a wire coathanger, it's
> American editors."
>
> -- Setting the record straight (Terry Pratchett, alt.fan.pratchett)
> (grabbed from http://www.ie.lspace.org/books/pqf/)
>
> (For those who aren't familiar, Terry Pratchett is a British humour
> fantasy novelist, who may or may not have recently lost the title of
> "Britain's best-selling novelist" to JK Rowling)
>
> Dan
>
> --
> WatCHI
> http://www.acm.org/chapters/watchi
> _______________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Group!
> To post to this list ....... discuss at ixdg.org
> (Un)Subscription Options ... http://discuss.ixdg.org/
> Announcements List ......... http://subscribe-announce.ixdg.org/
> Questions .................. lists at ixdg.org
> Home ....................... http://ixdg.org/
>

30 Aug 2005 - 3:19pm
ldebett
2004

Nancy wrote:
> I would hope - naively, I'm sure - that Americans could expand their
> linguistic horizons to include "jumper" for "sweater".

Don't forget... Harry Potter are kids' books!! (even though many adults read
them) And if you're "designing" something, shouldn't you know your audience
and design for them??? Isn't that a credo of ours?

Also, to play the other side of the coin, "i don't know what i don't know
until i discover i don't know it". Maybe in-line "translations" aren't ideal
b/c they don't enlighten the readers; maybe a footnote on the original term
in the American versions would work to keep the original text while
educating the reader on the English speak.

~Lisa

30 Aug 2005 - 3:42pm
Elizabeth Buie
2004

Lisa deBettencourt wrote:

>a footnote on the original term
>in the American versions

I'm not sure that would work so well in children's fiction. But it
reminded me of one of my favorite books in my own collection: an Italian
translation of _The_Annotated_Alice_. Not only are Carroll's books
translated; not only are Martin Gardner's notes translated; but there's an
additional set of notes explaining the English puns and suchlike that
don't work in Italian (e.g., that "purpose" and "porpoise" sound similar).

In a page-turner of a novel, though, I think it would detract from the
reader's involvement with the story.

Elizabeth
--
Elizabeth Buie
Computer Sciences Corporation
Rockville, Maryland, USA
+1.301.921.3326

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30 Aug 2005 - 5:20pm
cfmdesigns
2004

David Heller <dave at ixdg.org> writes:

>Can someone someone from a "pop" state (you know who you are; but please
>exclude yourself if you say "soda pop", which I know a small minority of
>folks say) what is the colloquial name for a vending machine that has said
>fizzy-sweetened, usually artificially colored beverage in it?

Heck if I know what sort of a state I'm from (or in, other than one
of confusion). Washington with parental influence from Southern
California and grandparental from the Ozarks, and a maybe touch of
Louisville. My diction is often precise enough that I've had people
accuse me of being British. (That's "often" with the faintest "T"
sound in the middle, mind you.)

"Pop" and "soda" are interchangeable for me (with an article for the
latter: "I'll have pop" vs. "I'll have a soda"), but it's a "Coke
machine" until I know what it actually has in it.
--

----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
Jim Drew Seattle, WA jdrew at adobe.com
http://home.earthlink.net/~rubberize/Weblog/index.html (Update: 08/04)

30 Aug 2005 - 3:42pm
Nancy Broden
2005

On 8/30/05, Lisa deBettencourt <ldebett at gmail.com> wrote:

> Don't forget... Harry Potter are kids' books!! (even though many adults read
> them) And if you're "designing" something, shouldn't you know your audience
> and design for them??? Isn't that a credo of ours?

I agree completely - when we are talking about the work we do. Peter
brought up the example of Harry Potter, which is a work of fiction. If
I were a writer of fiction I would write within a context appropriate
to the work, rather than trying to tailor my writing style or
vocabulary to what would be popular with my 'target markets'.

So I think what I am saying is that I would be a poor, unsuccessful,
unpublished author, but my creative integrity would be intact... ;-P

-- Nancy
--------------------------------------
nancy.broden at gmail.com

31 Aug 2005 - 3:15pm
Juan Lanus
2005

About preserving Potter's ... what?
If I were the author I'd choose to preserve the integrity of the plot
better than the wording, because that is the work, and the words are
sort of the locasized/localised UI.
In fact, the Finnish version has a completely different wording but if
it's a good translation it would keep the story intact.
The en-uk to en-us "adaptation" is in fact a translation. Only UK and
USA have not been separated for so many years as Italy and France
(latin-it vs. latin-fr).

BTW, when I reached home yesterday night my children were watching a
Harry Potter film in their PC, it was the "Spanish for Spain" version
instead of the "Spanish for Latin America" one. I found it quite
distracting (Spain is to Argentina as UK is to USA).
--
Juan Lanus
TECNOSOL
Argentina

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