More on re-ordering rows

26 Feb 2004 - 4:52pm
10 years ago
6 replies
574 reads
sandeepblues
2003

Unfortunately, where I work, the role of ID and UI
engineer are forced into 1 person: me. Therefore, I
don't have the luxury, authority, or maybe, the
self-discipline to suggest the hard-to-implement
drag-n-drop DHTML design.

I am leaning towards option (b) : The user changes the
order number in a textbox to change the row order, as
opposed to (a): provide up/down buttons and a
selection list.

Here is my reasoning. Please comment.

There are numerous edit pages for this my.yahoo-style
front-end application, that require reordering of
items in a table. Some have a small number of
items(5-8), and others may have a large number(10-15).
To be consistent, I am chosing (b) for all, since
that seems like the necessary alternative for the
large number.

I would like to make things more WSYWIG. I can think
of 2 alternatives assuming option (b) :

(1) When the textbox with the order number loses
focus, automatically reorder the table at the client.
Will this be too surprising to the user? It seems like
immediate feedback.

(2) Place a link to update the order at the client.
Once the user has changed all the order numbers, the
user clicks the link to reorder.

Please comment. Don't respond "Go to some user testing
with both". :). Thanks.

Sandeep

Comments

26 Feb 2004 - 6:03pm
Nathan Vincent
2004

Stick with me; if option (b), it will have it's own fiddly problems to
sort out. If option (a), it will potentially require a lot of clicks to
re-order some items (btw, Acrobat 6's 'Create PDF from multiple
files...' uses this exact method).
So, this might not be appropriate, but what if a second 'pane'
was created that is the 'destination' order, so the user selects from
the existing order (on the left) and adds files to the pane on the
right. This way, the user scans the list on the left, locates the item
they find most important, and send it across to the right, first. It's
then removed from the left. So the process would be a simple one of
judging the priority of the items left, and hitting one button. You'd
probably still have to implement option (a) too... And multiple
selection. Anyway, it would be good also for when the user doesn't want
to/ has the option of not including some of the items at all.
Now that I've said all that, I reckon I'd go (a), additionally
with independent checkboxes [or radio buttons :)] if it was possible for
the user to turn some items off altogether. There's nothing nice about
entering a bunch numbers into fields. Way too much mental load for my
liking.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sandeep Jain [mailto:sandeepblues at yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, 27 February 2004 8:53 AM
To: id-discuss
Subject: [ID Discuss] More on re-ordering rows

Unfortunately, where I work, the role of ID and UI
engineer are forced into 1 person: me. Therefore, I
don't have the luxury, authority, or maybe, the
self-discipline to suggest the hard-to-implement
drag-n-drop DHTML design.

I am leaning towards option (b) : The user changes the
order number in a textbox to change the row order, as
opposed to (a): provide up/down buttons and a
selection list.

Here is my reasoning. Please comment.

There are numerous edit pages for this my.yahoo-style
front-end application, that require reordering of
items in a table. Some have a small number of
items(5-8), and others may have a large number(10-15).
To be consistent, I am chosing (b) for all, since
that seems like the necessary alternative for the
large number.

I would like to make things more WSYWIG. I can think
of 2 alternatives assuming option (b) :

(1) When the textbox with the order number loses
focus, automatically reorder the table at the client.
Will this be too surprising to the user? It seems like immediate
feedback.

(2) Place a link to update the order at the client.
Once the user has changed all the order numbers, the
user clicks the link to reorder.

Please comment. Don't respond "Go to some user testing
with both". :). Thanks.

Sandeep
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26 Feb 2004 - 7:29pm
Peter Bagnall
2003

Another option is some sort of cut and paste type solution. This works
for long movements. Take a list of 20 items. If you want to more #2 to
#19 you hit the cut button on #2, which moves it to a holding area, and
then you hit an insert button above #19 (or #18 as it will be when #2
is cut) and reinsert. It's relatively easy to implement, it's good at
long moves, and it's less fiddly than typing in numbers.

I'd agree with others that DnD is a preferred option if you have the
resources to build it, but assuming you don't the cut/insert option
might be an improvement.

--Pete

On 26 Feb 2004, at 23:03, Nathan Vincent wrote:

> Stick with me; if option (b), it will have it's own fiddly problems to
> sort out. If option (a), it will potentially require a lot of clicks to
> re-order some items (btw, Acrobat 6's 'Create PDF from multiple
> files...' uses this exact method).
> So, this might not be appropriate, but what if a second 'pane'
> was created that is the 'destination' order, so the user selects from
> the existing order (on the left) and adds files to the pane on the
> right. This way, the user scans the list on the left, locates the item
> they find most important, and send it across to the right, first. It's
> then removed from the left. So the process would be a simple one of
> judging the priority of the items left, and hitting one button. You'd
> probably still have to implement option (a) too... And multiple
> selection. Anyway, it would be good also for when the user doesn't want
> to/ has the option of not including some of the items at all.
> Now that I've said all that, I reckon I'd go (a), additionally
> with independent checkboxes [or radio buttons :)] if it was possible
> for
> the user to turn some items off altogether. There's nothing nice about
> entering a bunch numbers into fields. Way too much mental load for my
> liking.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sandeep Jain [mailto:sandeepblues at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, 27 February 2004 8:53 AM
> To: id-discuss
> Subject: [ID Discuss] More on re-ordering rows
>
>
> Unfortunately, where I work, the role of ID and UI
> engineer are forced into 1 person: me. Therefore, I
> don't have the luxury, authority, or maybe, the
> self-discipline to suggest the hard-to-implement
> drag-n-drop DHTML design.
>
> I am leaning towards option (b) : The user changes the
> order number in a textbox to change the row order, as
> opposed to (a): provide up/down buttons and a
> selection list.
>
> Here is my reasoning. Please comment.
>
> There are numerous edit pages for this my.yahoo-style
> front-end application, that require reordering of
> items in a table. Some have a small number of
> items(5-8), and others may have a large number(10-15).
> To be consistent, I am chosing (b) for all, since
> that seems like the necessary alternative for the
> large number.
>
> I would like to make things more WSYWIG. I can think
> of 2 alternatives assuming option (b) :
>
> (1) When the textbox with the order number loses
> focus, automatically reorder the table at the client.
> Will this be too surprising to the user? It seems like immediate
> feedback.
>
> (2) Place a link to update the order at the client.
> Once the user has changed all the order numbers, the
> user clicks the link to reorder.
>
> Please comment. Don't respond "Go to some user testing
> with both". :). Thanks.
>
> Sandeep
> _______________________________________________
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> competitive advantage, achieve future growth and
> increased profitability. We deliver world-class solutions
> cost-effectively, predictably and in the shortest possible
> time, utilising outstanding local talent, backed by vast
> global capability, in-depth industry knowledge and
> technical excellence. Infosys Australia is the Australian
> subsidiary of Infosys Technologies, a world leader in
> consulting and information technology services, with
> over 23,000 employees in over 30 offices worldwide.
>
> ********** CAUTION - Disclaimer **********
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> Opinions, conclusions and other information in this
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> ("The Company") shall be understood as neither
> given nor endorsed by it.
>
> The Company advises that this e-mail and any attached
> files should be scanned to detect viruses. The Company
> accepts no liability for loss or damage (whether caused
> by negligence or not) resulting from the use of any
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> The Company reserves the right to monitor and review
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Peter Bagnall - http://people.surfaceeffect.com/pete/

26 Feb 2004 - 7:47pm
sandeepblues
2003

I am going to respond to multiple responses at once.

I ran the 2 options by some people, and nobody liked
option (b).

Looks like my mind has been changed. I'll go with
option(a), if I can't do drag-n-drop. Another reason
for going with option (a), is that I need the ability
to say: "Order alphabetically" as a single click, and
layout-wise, having a separate webpage with option(a)
in it, caters to that.

(I)

Radiobuttons and multiselection:

Radio-buttons are for exclusive selection. I don't
understand how multi-selection make sense with
incremental movements. If the user selects rows 3, 5,
and 7, and presses move up, then, do these rows become
row 2, 4, 6, or rows 2,3,4? If one does drag-n-drop,
then multiselection makes sense, and they would become
sequential: n, n+1, n+2.

(III)
Destination selection:

Nathan - I presume you don't expect the user to re-add
all the items to the right, everytime he/she want to
change one item's place.

So, let's go through the flow: GUI starts with the
same items in both lists. User selects items (multiple
possible) on the left, then selects a single item on
the right, then says move to right. The selected items
on left appear below the selected item on the right,
and they vanish from the left. So, now the user
realizes...oops, I need to add one of the moved items
from the bottom to the top. So, he moves that to the
left, and then, move it to the right...or he clicks
the up button 20 times.

This is definitely an interesting idea, but seems like
the UI is over-complicated and doesn't map easily to
the task.

Sandeep

--- Nathan Vincent <Nathan.Vincent at expert.com> wrote:
> Stick with me; if option (b), it will have it's own
> fiddly problems to
> sort out. If option (a), it will potentially require
> a lot of clicks to
> re-order some items (btw, Acrobat 6's 'Create PDF
> from multiple
> files...' uses this exact method).
> So, this might not be appropriate, but what if a
> second 'pane'
> was created that is the 'destination' order, so the
> user selects from
> the existing order (on the left) and adds files to
> the pane on the
> right. This way, the user scans the list on the
> left, locates the item
> they find most important, and send it across to the
> right, first. It's
> then removed from the left. So the process would be
> a simple one of
> judging the priority of the items left, and hitting
> one button. You'd
> probably still have to implement option (a) too...
> And multiple
> selection. Anyway, it would be good also for when
> the user doesn't want
> to/ has the option of not including some of the
> items at all.
> Now that I've said all that, I reckon I'd go (a),
> additionally
> with independent checkboxes [or radio buttons :)] if
> it was possible for
> the user to turn some items off altogether. There's
> nothing nice about
> entering a bunch numbers into fields. Way too much
> mental load for my
> liking.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sandeep Jain [mailto:sandeepblues at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, 27 February 2004 8:53 AM
> To: id-discuss
> Subject: [ID Discuss] More on re-ordering rows
>
>
> Unfortunately, where I work, the role of ID and UI
> engineer are forced into 1 person: me. Therefore, I
> don't have the luxury, authority, or maybe, the
> self-discipline to suggest the hard-to-implement
> drag-n-drop DHTML design.
>
> I am leaning towards option (b) : The user changes
> the
> order number in a textbox to change the row order,
> as
> opposed to (a): provide up/down buttons and a
> selection list.
>
> Here is my reasoning. Please comment.
>
> There are numerous edit pages for this
> my.yahoo-style
> front-end application, that require reordering of
> items in a table. Some have a small number of
> items(5-8), and others may have a large
> number(10-15).
> To be consistent, I am chosing (b) for all, since
> that seems like the necessary alternative for the
> large number.
>
> I would like to make things more WSYWIG. I can
> think
> of 2 alternatives assuming option (b) :
>
> (1) When the textbox with the order number loses
> focus, automatically reorder the table at the
> client.
> Will this be too surprising to the user? It seems
> like immediate
> feedback.
>
> (2) Place a link to update the order at the client.
> Once the user has changed all the order numbers, the
> user clicks the link to reorder.
>
> Please comment. Don't respond "Go to some user
> testing
> with both". :). Thanks.
>
> Sandeep
> _______________________________________________
> Interaction Design Discussion List
> discuss at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> to change your options (unsubscribe or set digest):
> http://discuss.interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Questions: lists at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Announcement Online List (discussion list members
> get announcements
> already)
> http://interactiondesigners.com/announceList/
> --
> http://interactiondesigners.com/
>
>
> ****** About Infosys Australia ********
> Infosys Australia is a leading provider of business
> driven
> technology solutions for the enterprise. We work
> with our
> clients in the spirit of partnership to assist them
> gain
> competitive advantage, achieve future growth and
> increased profitability. We deliver world-class
> solutions
> cost-effectively, predictably and in the shortest
> possible
> time, utilising outstanding local talent, backed by
> vast
> global capability, in-depth industry knowledge and
> technical excellence. Infosys Australia is the
> Australian
> subsidiary of Infosys Technologies, a world leader
> in
> consulting and information technology services, with
>
> over 23,000 employees in over 30 offices worldwide.
>
> ********** CAUTION - Disclaimer **********
> This message may contain privileged and confidential
> information. If you are not the intended recipient
> of this
> message (or responsible for delivery of the message
> to
> such person) you are hereby notified that any use,
> dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this
> message
> is prohibited. If you have received this message in
> error,
> you should destroy it and kindly notify the sender
> by reply
> e-mail. Please advise immediately if you or your
> employer
> do not consent to Internet e-mail for messages of
> this kind.
> Opinions, conclusions and other information in this
> message that do not relate to the official business
> of
> Infosys Technologies Australia Pty Ltd ABN 94 054
> 141 365
> ("The Company") shall be understood as neither
> given nor endorsed by it.
>
> The Company advises that this e-mail and any
> attached
> files should be scanned to detect viruses. The
> Company
> accepts no liability for loss or damage (whether
> caused
> by negligence or not) resulting from the use of any
> attached files.
>
> The Company reserves the right to monitor and review
>
> the content of all messages sent to or from this
> e-mail address.
> Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be
> stored on
> The Company's e-mail system
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> **INFY******** End of Disclaimer **********
>

26 Feb 2004 - 7:56pm
Nathan Vincent
2004

Hey Sandeep. I meant the area on the right is empty to begin with, and
the left is 'full'. The final order is determined by which order they
add the item into the right hand side from the left. As for checkboxes
(radio buttons were just a joke), I was wondering if it'd be
possible/appropriate to hide some items altogether, eg. The user doesn't
need/want to see items 3,7,9 or something, so rather than have to stick
them at the bottom, they simply toggle the checkbox for these items (or
don't add them to the right hand side). As for multi selection with
items 2,4,6... I truly have no idea. I think perhaps this is a very good
reason why it mightn't work. I was only thinking or selecting a 'chunk'.

-----Original Message-----
From: Sandeep Jain [mailto:sandeepblues at yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, 27 February 2004 11:47 AM
To: Nathan Vincent; id-discuss
Subject: RE: [ID Discuss] More on re-ordering rows

I am going to respond to multiple responses at once.

I ran the 2 options by some people, and nobody liked
option (b).

Looks like my mind has been changed. I'll go with
option(a), if I can't do drag-n-drop. Another reason
for going with option (a), is that I need the ability
to say: "Order alphabetically" as a single click, and layout-wise,
having a separate webpage with option(a) in it, caters to that.

(I)

Radiobuttons and multiselection:

Radio-buttons are for exclusive selection. I don't
understand how multi-selection make sense with
incremental movements. If the user selects rows 3, 5,
and 7, and presses move up, then, do these rows become
row 2, 4, 6, or rows 2,3,4? If one does drag-n-drop,
then multiselection makes sense, and they would become
sequential: n, n+1, n+2.

(III)
Destination selection:

Nathan - I presume you don't expect the user to re-add
all the items to the right, everytime he/she want to
change one item's place.

So, let's go through the flow: GUI starts with the
same items in both lists. User selects items (multiple
possible) on the left, then selects a single item on
the right, then says move to right. The selected items
on left appear below the selected item on the right,
and they vanish from the left. So, now the user realizes...oops, I need
to add one of the moved items from the bottom to the top. So, he moves
that to the left, and then, move it to the right...or he clicks the up
button 20 times.

This is definitely an interesting idea, but seems like
the UI is over-complicated and doesn't map easily to
the task.

Sandeep

--- Nathan Vincent <Nathan.Vincent at expert.com> wrote:
> Stick with me; if option (b), it will have it's own
> fiddly problems to
> sort out. If option (a), it will potentially require
> a lot of clicks to
> re-order some items (btw, Acrobat 6's 'Create PDF
> from multiple
> files...' uses this exact method).
> So, this might not be appropriate, but what if a
> second 'pane'
> was created that is the 'destination' order, so the
> user selects from
> the existing order (on the left) and adds files to
> the pane on the
> right. This way, the user scans the list on the
> left, locates the item
> they find most important, and send it across to the
> right, first. It's
> then removed from the left. So the process would be
> a simple one of
> judging the priority of the items left, and hitting
> one button. You'd
> probably still have to implement option (a) too...
> And multiple
> selection. Anyway, it would be good also for when
> the user doesn't want
> to/ has the option of not including some of the
> items at all.
> Now that I've said all that, I reckon I'd go (a), additionally
> with independent checkboxes [or radio buttons :)] if
> it was possible for
> the user to turn some items off altogether. There's
> nothing nice about
> entering a bunch numbers into fields. Way too much
> mental load for my
> liking.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sandeep Jain [mailto:sandeepblues at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Friday, 27 February 2004 8:53 AM
> To: id-discuss
> Subject: [ID Discuss] More on re-ordering rows
>
>
> Unfortunately, where I work, the role of ID and UI
> engineer are forced into 1 person: me. Therefore, I
> don't have the luxury, authority, or maybe, the self-discipline to
> suggest the hard-to-implement drag-n-drop DHTML design.
>
> I am leaning towards option (b) : The user changes
> the
> order number in a textbox to change the row order,
> as
> opposed to (a): provide up/down buttons and a
> selection list.
>
> Here is my reasoning. Please comment.
>
> There are numerous edit pages for this
> my.yahoo-style
> front-end application, that require reordering of
> items in a table. Some have a small number of
> items(5-8), and others may have a large
> number(10-15).
> To be consistent, I am chosing (b) for all, since
> that seems like the necessary alternative for the
> large number.
>
> I would like to make things more WSYWIG. I can
> think
> of 2 alternatives assuming option (b) :
>
> (1) When the textbox with the order number loses
> focus, automatically reorder the table at the
> client.
> Will this be too surprising to the user? It seems
> like immediate
> feedback.
>
> (2) Place a link to update the order at the client.
> Once the user has changed all the order numbers, the
> user clicks the link to reorder.
>
> Please comment. Don't respond "Go to some user
> testing
> with both". :). Thanks.
>
> Sandeep
> _______________________________________________
> Interaction Design Discussion List discuss at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> to change your options (unsubscribe or set digest):
> http://discuss.interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Questions: lists at interactiondesigners.com
> --
> Announcement Online List (discussion list members
> get announcements
> already)
> http://interactiondesigners.com/announceList/
> --
> http://interactiondesigners.com/
>
>
> ****** About Infosys Australia ********
> Infosys Australia is a leading provider of business
> driven
> technology solutions for the enterprise. We work
> with our
> clients in the spirit of partnership to assist them
> gain
> competitive advantage, achieve future growth and
> increased profitability. We deliver world-class
> solutions
> cost-effectively, predictably and in the shortest
> possible
> time, utilising outstanding local talent, backed by
> vast
> global capability, in-depth industry knowledge and
> technical excellence. Infosys Australia is the
> Australian
> subsidiary of Infosys Technologies, a world leader
> in
> consulting and information technology services, with
>
> over 23,000 employees in over 30 offices worldwide.
>
> ********** CAUTION - Disclaimer **********
> This message may contain privileged and confidential information. If
> you are not the intended recipient of this
> message (or responsible for delivery of the message
> to
> such person) you are hereby notified that any use,
> dissemination, distribution or reproduction of this
> message
> is prohibited. If you have received this message in
> error,
> you should destroy it and kindly notify the sender
> by reply
> e-mail. Please advise immediately if you or your
> employer
> do not consent to Internet e-mail for messages of
> this kind.
> Opinions, conclusions and other information in this
> message that do not relate to the official business
> of
> Infosys Technologies Australia Pty Ltd ABN 94 054
> 141 365
> ("The Company") shall be understood as neither
> given nor endorsed by it.
>
> The Company advises that this e-mail and any
> attached
> files should be scanned to detect viruses. The
> Company
> accepts no liability for loss or damage (whether
> caused
> by negligence or not) resulting from the use of any
> attached files.
>
> The Company reserves the right to monitor and review
>
> the content of all messages sent to or from this
> e-mail address.
> Messages sent to or from this e-mail address may be
> stored on
> The Company's e-mail system
>
> **INFY******** End of Disclaimer **********
>

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27 Feb 2004 - 8:12am
Marcin Wichary
2004

: Radio-buttons are for exclusive selection. I don't
: understand how multi-selection make sense with
: incremental movements. If the user selects rows 3, 5,
: and 7, and presses move up, then, do these rows become
: row 2, 4, 6, or rows 2,3,4? If one does drag-n-drop,
: then multiselection makes sense, and they would become
: sequential: n, n+1, n+2.

Why would it make sense for drag and drop and wouldn't
for incremental movements?

In any case, I think a nice idea would also be to
include undo... which I've seen discussed just around
a corner. :)

Marcin Wichary
e:\> mwichary at aci.com.pl
w:\> www.aci.com.pl/mwichary >> Attached
w:\> www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/GUIdebook >> Graphical User Interface gallery
w:\> www.10yearsofbeingboring.com >> 10 years of Being Boring

27 Feb 2004 - 1:34pm
sandeepblues
2003

The answer is in that email.

With incremental moves, it is not clear whether the
non-sequential selections should be collapsed into a
sequential selection and then moved, or each should be
moved independently. 2,4,6 versus 2,3,4.

With d-n-d, it is common-place to expect that the
selected objects will collapse into the position after
the target.

SAndeep

--- Marcin Wichary <mwichary at aci.com.pl> wrote:
> : Radio-buttons are for exclusive selection. I don't
> : understand how multi-selection make sense with
> : incremental movements. If the user selects rows 3,
> 5,
> : and 7, and presses move up, then, do these rows
> become
> : row 2, 4, 6, or rows 2,3,4? If one does
> drag-n-drop,
> : then multiselection makes sense, and they would
> become
> : sequential: n, n+1, n+2.
>
> Why would it make sense for drag and drop and
> wouldn't
> for incremental movements?
>
> In any case, I think a nice idea would also be to
> include undo... which I've seen discussed just
> around
> a corner. :)
>
>
> Marcin Wichary
> e:\> mwichary at aci.com.pl
> w:\> www.aci.com.pl/mwichary >> Attached
> w:\> www.aci.com.pl/mwichary/GUIdebook >> Graphical
> User Interface gallery
> w:\> www.10yearsofbeingboring.com >> 10 years of
> Being Boring
>
>
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