...

8 Aug 2010 - 6:35pm
4 years ago
40 replies
2888 reads
Maurice
2009

...

Comments

8 Aug 2010 - 7:19pm
smitchell360
2010

I know were you are coming from, but I do not agree that the best designers cannot code and vice versa. I know several excellent designers who became passionate about coding; and programmers who have become passionate about design.

Both have made the transition without a problem.

If anything, they are both better at what they do because of their past -- not in spite of their past.

Also, there is an entire community of visual artists who program in Processing, Erlang and other hard core languages. I'm sure that they would disagree.

Now, all of that said, if you PERSONALLY do not like to code ... fine. There are some employers who will see this as a negative and some who will not care.

This is true in any job. Some CFO's preferr to hire individuals with strong operational (line of business) backgrounds. Some like to hire mathmeticians.

I agree that it would be odd for an employer to assume a designer to know Java or C#. However, any designer who does not master CSS, XHTML and jQuery is limiting their employment options. But more importantly, they are limiting their ability to express themselves in this (relatively) new medium. PSD prototypes are a thing of the past.

 

8 Aug 2010 - 8:05pm
Tai.Greene
2010

Finally, someone put into perspective. Thank you for the "rant".

On Aug 8, 2010 5:32 PM, "Maurice Carty" <mo_vibes@hotmail.com> wrote:

OK...Here we go again.

Another rant about job expectations and recruiters post requirements.

Let it be known. I have over a decade in the field. Much experience, many projects, large clients, many roles, many offers.
Why?, I specialize.

Ask me what I do and I will reply. "I am not a programmer. I am an Interface Designer for software applications."

For recruiters:
- JQuery was introduced in 2006 so don't ask for 10 yrs experience in JQuery
- The best programmer "will never be" your best designer
- Your best designer "will never be excited" about reviewing code
- Designers are people persons...out to please, not to make things logical. Emotions and logic are way apart.
- Designers like money, but passion is prime
- Programmers like results, designers like smiles (bank machine/ATM example)
- Designers hate being asked to apply for or changing their resumes/profile to include programming
- Programmer dread being asked to show examples of class designs
- Know the difference between the two...please
- You wouldn't ask your plumber to pull your teeth, so don't ask a designer to code your 2010 API with J2EE
- Realize the designers hate this!

AIs, UXDs, GUIs:
- Say "F-IT!" to them who take no insight to their requirement listing before they post jobs that promise the rainbow
- Spam, slander, screem, shout, blog, post to make your title clear (designer, not programmer, but understand the process)
- Ignore recruiter who don't take the time to do their research before they ask you to give up what you have for greener opps.
- NEVER change your portfolio for ANY recruiter (you are what you do! don't sell out)
- Realize that most employers don't understand your experience boundaries and rely on recruiters to fill the void
- DO NOT BECOME a designer/programmer/developer (design if you design, code if you code)
- Remember this: "We are all more productive if we specialize in one thing rather than try to excel at many things" - Socrates
- Review for your self what the "average" expectations are (need to, good to know, know what it is, not interested)
- Tell you're circles, collegues and groups, we have them....we will eventually need them
- Try to get gis/jobs through your circle, collegues and groups
- Send praise to the recuiter that follow the rules and respect you time and experince (genre)

Praises, slaps, slanders and comments are more than welcome.

Thanks for letting me rant IxDA!!!!.
I LOVE THIS PLACE.

8 Aug 2010 - 9:05pm
monkeyshine
2010

Fight the Power! :)
Okay, I agree with everything you said except for "DO NOT BECOME a designer/programmer/developer (design if you design, code if you code)" 
...while I agree with you in spirit: most of us mere mortals spend lots of time and energy being good at one-ish of these areas and recruiters/companies who try to get all-in-one end typically end up with a less than rocking star in one area. However, there are a lucky few who are incredibly talented and smart who have mastered more than one. It's rare but I would never discourage someone from exploring all areas. I know enough about each area to inform my work and help me communicate with teammates. I also know enough about each to know where my strengths are. And if you are lucky enough to be able to rock more than one specialty, good for you because you will make more $$ than most of us. ;)
Deanna


On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Maurice Carty <mo_vibes@hotmail.com> wrote:

OK...Here we go again.

Another rant about job expectations and recruiters post requirements.

Let it be known. I have over a decade in the field. Much experience, many projects, large clients, many roles, many offers.
Why?, I specialize.

Ask me what I do and I will reply. "I am not a programmer. I am an Interface Designer for software applications."

For recruiters:
- JQuery was introduced in 2006 so don't ask for 10 yrs experience in JQuery
- The best programmer "will never be" your best designer
- Your best designer "will never be excited" about reviewing code
- Designers are people persons...out to please, not to make things logical. Emotions and logic are way apart.
- Designers like money, but passion is prime
- Programmers like results, designers like smiles (bank machine/ATM example)
- Designers hate being asked to apply for or changing their resumes/profile to include programming
- Programmer dread being asked to show examples of class designs
- Know the difference between the two...please
- You wouldn't ask your plumber to pull your teeth, so don't ask a designer to code your 2010 API with J2EE
- Realize the designers hate this!

AIs, UXDs, GUIs:
- Say "F-IT!" to them who take no insight to their requirement listing before they post jobs that promise the rainbow
- Spam, slander, screem, shout, blog, post to make your title clear (designer, not programmer, but understand the process)
- Ignore recruiter who don't take the time to do their research before they ask you to give up what you have for greener opps.
- NEVER change your portfolio for ANY recruiter (you are what you do! don't sell out)
- Realize that most employers don't understand your experience boundaries and rely on recruiters to fill the void
- DO NOT BECOME a designer/programmer/developer (design if you design, code if you code)
- Remember this: "We are all more productive if we specialize in one thing rather than try to excel at many things" - Socrates
- Review for your self what the "average" expectations are (need to, good to know, know what it is, not interested)
- Tell you're circles, collegues and groups, we have them....we will eventually need them
- Try to get gis/jobs through your circle, collegues and groups
- Send praise to the recuiter that follow the rules and respect you time and experince (genre)

Praises, slaps, slanders and comments are more than welcome.

Thanks for letting me rant IxDA!!!!.
I LOVE THIS PLACE.

(
18 Aug 2010 - 11:06am
mdostert
2010

Good rant!

Maureen Dostert

----- Original Message ---- From: monkeyshine To: mdostert2002@yahoo.com Sent: Sun, August 8, 2010 10:11:57 PM Subject: Re: [IxDA] Another Rant - Expectations and Roles - Designers vs. Developers vs. Recruiters...blah, blah, blah

Fight the Power! :) Okay, I agree with everything you said except for "DO NOT BECOME a designer/programmer/developer (design if you design, code if you code)" ...while I agree with you in spirit: most of us mere mortals spend lots of time and energy being good at one-ish of these areas and recruiters/companies who try to get all-in-one end typically end up with a less than rocking star in one area. However, there are a lucky few who are incredibly talented and smart who have mastered more than one. It's rare but I would never discourage someone from exploring all areas. I know enough about each area to inform my work and help me communicate with teammates. I also know enough about each to know where my strengths are. And if you are lucky enough to be able to rock more than one specialty, good for you because you will make more $$ than most of us. ;) Deanna

On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Maurice Carty wrote:

> OK...Here we go again. > > Another rant about job expectations and recruiters post requirements. > > Let it be known. I have over a decade in the field. Much experience, many >projects, large clients, many roles, many offers. > Why?, I specialize. > > Ask me what I do and I will reply. "I am not a programmer. I am an Interface >Designer for software applications." > > For recruiters: > - JQuery was introduced in 2006 so don't ask for 10 yrs experience in JQuery > - The best programmer "will never be" your best designer > - Your best designer "will never be excited" about reviewing code > - Designers are people persons...out to please, not to make things logical. >Emotions and logic are way apart. > - Designers like money, but passion is prime > - Programmers like results, designers like smiles (bank machine/ATM example) > - Designers hate being asked to apply for or changing their resumes/profile to >include programming > - Programmer dread being asked to show examples of class designs > - Know the difference between the two...please > - You wouldn't ask your plumber to pull your teeth, so don't ask a designer to >code your 2010 API with J2EE > - Realize the designers hate this! > > AIs, UXDs, GUIs: > - Say "F-IT!" to them who take no insight to their requirement listing before >they post jobs that promise the rainbow > - Spam, slander, screem, shout, blog, post to make your title clear (designer, >not programmer, but understand the process) > - Ignore recruiter who don't take the time to do their research before they ask >you to give up what you have for greener opps. > - NEVER change your portfolio for ANY recruiter (you are what you do! don't >sell out) > - Realize that most employers don't understand your experience boundaries and >rely on recruiters to fill the void > - DO NOT BECOME a designer/programmer/developer (design if you design, code if >you code) > - Remember this: "We are all more productive if we specialize in one thing >rather than try to excel at many things" - Socrates > - Review for your self what the "average" expectations are (need to, good to >know, know what it is, not interested) > - Tell you're circles, collegues and groups, we have them....we will eventually >need them > - Try to get gis/jobs through your circle, collegues and groups > - Send praise to the recuiter that follow the rules and respect you time and >experince (genre) > > Praises, slaps, slanders and comments are more than welcome. > > Thanks for letting me rant IxDA!!!!. > I LOVE THIS PLACE. > > ( >

9 Aug 2010 - 11:18am
Sean Pook
2008

Great post. As a UX recruiter I say, drop any recruiter asap if they think you're a programmer as you're facing an uphill struggle from there on in and you can look forward to many a unwanted and irrelevant job descriptions being sent to you.

Not sure I agree about the - DO NOT Change you're portfolio for a recruiters opinion (see other portfolios for inspiration, not a recruiters').  - In the general sense, sure, but rememeber a good recruiter's job is to understand the client intimately and if that understanding leads to tips on how to present yourself to give you a better chance of getting the job - then that's a good thing, no?

I regularly advise people on resume/cv layout and portfolios etc. It can really make a big difference.

"- Designers hate being asked to apply for or changing their resumes/profile to include programming" - I found this funny, as I'm often doing the opposite, or advise the coding section to become very minimalist.

"- DO NOT BECOME a designer/programmer/developer (design if you design, code if you code)" - very true.

"- Send praise to the recuiter that follow the rules and respect you time and experince (genre) "- good one. I like Champagne and choccies please :-)

"- Ask other people if they've heard about the recruiter or their agency

- Ask how much experience they have (recruiter) in the field "- These two points - now UX is becoming more well-known, a lot of generalist IT recruiters are now jumping in the game. These guys are the worst. No morals, ethics, or understanding of the field. They really give recruiters a bad name indeed. You know who you are people! Please stop sending people's personal details (resumes) to companies without a candidate's knowledge or permission.

 

Overall, good rant!




10 Aug 2010 - 4:48pm
Andrei Herasimchuk
2004

There's so much wrong with this post I have no idea where to even begin. So I'll refrain. But boy am I tempted. Seriously tempted.

10 Aug 2010 - 10:55pm
Andrei Herasimchuk
2004

This post comes as a request. And it's been too long since I ranted in public.

A response:

 

"The best programmers 'will never be' your best designers"

Bullshit and borderline offensive. Photoshop 1.0 was created by an engineer and it was incredible well-designed. Many of the best desktop publishing programs and software out there were first designed by engineers. Most great technology products -- the automobile, household appliances, etc. -- in their early infancies were designed and created by engineers. The qualities to being a great engineer are also the same qualities to being a great designer. Attention to detail. The ability to understand systems. Technical skills. Craft. The ability to execute a vision. The ability to bring something into the world.

 

What's especially ironic is that when we discuss interaction design as a discipline that excludes visual aesthetics like so many on this list in the past have stated, all the qualities of good engineering are precisely the same qualities to being a good interaction designer. Behavior? That's the easiest part for an engineer in the tech world to do! It plays right into their strengths of system design and flow, which is how good code works. It's also why so many engineers in software become "interaction" designers, considering so many in this group insist that visual aesthetics are not part of the job. 

 

I'm not the one who's ever stated that aesthetics are not part of the job, and I've been boo'ed for saying things like interaction designers need to learn how to draw. Given that there are some who have attempted to keep visual craft out of this job description, don't get upset when you've laid the path for other technical skills to creep in, like the exact skills a person who can handle behavior and interaction and who also knows how to code becomes more of the job requests that you see.

 

"Your best designers 'will never be excited' about reviewing Java code."

 

If you help design software or anything that is constructed from code and this is your attitude, you have picked the wrong profession, pure and simple. God help the employer that hires a designer to work on their software but who loathes code and everything to do with it. That's like wanting to be a surgeon but you can't be bothered with all the messy human stuff, like urine, feces and blood. The horror!


"Designers are people persons...out to please, not to make things logical. Emotions and logic are way apart."

 

More bullshit. No words to even describe how inaccurate this statement is. Sidenote: I used to know a guy who always said being organized (read: logical and systematic) obstructed the creative process. In my experience, being organized and systemic allows me to focus all my energy on the creative tasks at hand instead of menial ones like trying to find which meeting I have to be at next or what deadline I'm supposed to hit this week. Emotion and logic are not mutually exclusive modes of operation. This is not the fictional Star Trek universe.


"Designers like money, but passion is prime, pleasure the objective."

 

Again, why is this couched as some sort of mutually exclusive option? I'm passionate and I like making money.


"Programmers like results, designers like smiles (bank machine/ATM example)"

 

Borderline offensive. I've worked with many a programmer who prefer the results that make the people who use their products smile. If you haven't, consider that your attitude might be leading you to work with people of a similar bent, if one the other side of a soiled coin.


"Designers hate being asked to apply for or changing their resumes/profile to include programming."

 

I don't hate it at all. In fact, it's how I get the edge over designers who still believe that being an interaction designer only entails drawing wireframes and telling other people what to draw or code. Good luck with that skill set in five years. Further, I enjoy the technical side of this job just as much as the aesthetic side or the people side, and when I get a chance to dive into code or build a prototype, I do it with gusto. 


"Programmers dread being asked to show examples of class designs."

 

More bullshit. The ones I hang around with actually want to do more front-end work, care deeply about the design of the product, and would like to find more ways to contribute to the design, not less. I just got into a heated debate not a few weeks ago with such programmers who wanted to get involved more earlier with the design process so they could do exactly this. It's my job to make sure I can find more ways to include them.


"Know the difference between the two…please"

 

Please take you're own advice here.

 

There, I said it. Seriously, IxDA and all the members of this organization. If you want to be taken seriously, this sort of post is not the way to do so and it has to stop. More of you need to push back on this sort of thinking when others in this group state it. More of you need to get your head above the treeline and see just where it's all going in the next decade. More of you need to stop fighting against what you don't want to do and admit that this job is maturing and the skills needed to do it at the professional level are growing. And if you don't want to sign up for knowing more, learning more, doing more, that's fine. There are plenty of other jobs out in the world that are satisfying as well.

 

But this job… This job in this field requires more. More of you need to demand more of yourselves and you need to stretch your boundaries. And you need to learn to enjoy it while its happening. Why? Because the true reward in this design job is that you'll spend your entire life learning and growing and doing more, and when you're time comes to pass, you'll be able to say, "Damn that was a ride! I'd love to go again."

11 Aug 2010 - 12:05am
Mike Dunn
2008

I absolutely agree with this. If there is one thing at all that any of us has learned in this industry, it's that there are no absolutes. At one point years ago, I was called a 'hybrid' (designer/developer), and that "hybrids will never be as good as the designer or developer who focuses on design or development." This infuriated me. No consideration as to how one affected the quality of the other.

Double bullshit on the myopic original post.

On Aug 10, 2010, at 10:58 PM, Andrei Herasimchuk wrote:

> This post comes as a request. And it's been too long since I ranted in public. > > A response: > >
> > "The best programmers 'will never be' your best designers" > > Bullshit and borderline offensive. Photoshop 1.0 was created by an engineer and it was incredible well-designed. Many of the best desktop publishing programs and software out there were first designed by engineers. Most great technology products -- the automobile, household appliances, etc. -- in their early infancies were designed and created by engineers. The qualities to being a great engineer are also the same qualities to being a great designer. Attention to detail. The ability to understand systems. Technical skills. Craft. The ability to execute a vision. The ability to bring something into the world. > >
> > What's especially ironic is that when we discuss interaction design as a discipline that excludes visual aesthetics like so many on this list in the past have stated, all the qualities of good engineering are precisely the same qualities to being a good interaction designer. Behavior? That's the easiest part for an engineer in the tech world to do! It plays right into their strengths of system design and flow, which is how good code works. It's also why so many engineers in software become "interaction" designers, considering so many in this group insist that visual aesthetics are not part of the job. > >
> > I'm not the one who's ever stated that aesthetics are not part of the job, and I've been boo'ed for saying things like interaction designers need to learn how to draw. Given that there are some who have attempted to keep visual craft out of this job description, don't get upset when you've laid the path for other technical skills to creep in, like the exact skills a person who can handle behavior and interaction and who also knows how to code becomes more of the job requests that you see. > >
> > "Your best designers 'will never be excited' about reviewing Java code." > >
> > If you help design software or anything that is constructed from code and this is your attitude, you have picked the wrong profession, pure and simple. God help the employer that hires a designer to work on their software but who loathes code and everything to do with it. That's like wanting to be a surgeon but you can't be bothered with all the messy human stuff, like urine, feces and blood. The horror! > > "Designers are people persons...out to please, not to make things logical. Emotions and logic are way apart." > >
> > More bullshit. No words to even describe how inaccurate this statement is. Sidenote: I used to know a guy who always said being organized (read: logical and systematic) obstructed the creative process. In my experience, being organized and systemic allows me to focus all my energy on the creative tasks at hand instead of menial ones like trying to find which meeting I have to be at next or what deadline I'm supposed to hit this week. Emotion and logic are not mutually exclusive modes of operation. This is not the fictional Star Trek universe. > > "Designers like money, but passion is prime, pleasure the objective." > >
> > Again, why is this couched as some sort of mutually exclusive option? I'm passionate and I like making money. > > "Programmers like results, designers like smiles (bank machine/ATM example)" > >
> > Borderline offensive. I've worked with many a programmer who prefer the results that make the people who use their products smile. If you haven't, consider that your attitude might be leading you to work with people of a similar bent, if one the other side of a soiled coin. > > "Designers hate being asked to apply for or changing their resumes/profile to include programming." > >
> > I don't hate it at all. In fact, it's how I get the edge over designers who still believe that being an interaction designer only entails drawing wireframes and telling other people what to draw or code. Good luck with that skill set in five years. Further, I enjoy the technical side of this job just as much as the aesthetic side or the people side, and when I get a chance to dive into code or build a prototype, I do it with gusto. > > "Programmers dread being asked to show examples of class designs." > >
> > More bullshit. The ones I hang around with actually want to do more front-end work, care deeply about the design of the product, and would like to find more ways to contribute to the design, not less. I just got into a heated debate not a few weeks ago with such programmers who wanted to get involved more earlier with the design process so they could do exactly this. It's my job to make sure I can find more ways to include them. > > "Know the difference between the two…please" > >
> > Please take you're own advice here. > >
> > There, I said it. Seriously, IxDA and all the members of this organization. If you want to be taken seriously, this sort of post is not the way to do so and it has to stop. More of you need to push back on this sort of thinking when others in this group state it. More of you need to get your head above the treeline and see just where it's all going in the next decade. More of you need to stop fighting against what you don't want to do and admit that this job is maturing and the skills needed to do it at the professional level are growing. And if you don't want to sign up for knowing more, learning more, doing more, that's fine. There are plenty of other jobs out in the world that are satisfying as well. > >
> > But this job… This job in this field requires more. More of you need to demand more of yourselves and you need to stretch your boundaries. And you need to learn to enjoy it while its happening. Why? Because the true reward in this design job is that you'll spend your entire life learning and growing and doing more, and when you're time comes to pass, you'll be able to say, "Damn that was a ride! I'd love to go again." > > (((P

11 Aug 2010 - 1:05am
Michel Vuijlsteke
2007

My feelings exactly. Thanks, Andrei.

Michel Vuijlsteke

-- Gschrvn mt gsm Srry vr evt fauten

On 11 Aug 2010, at 06:48, Andrei Herasimchuk wrote:

> This post comes as a request. And it's been too long since I ranted in public. > > A response: > >
> > "The best programmers 'will never be' your best designers" > > Bullshit and borderline offensive. Photoshop 1.0 was created by an engineer and it was incredible well-designed. Many of the best desktop publishing programs and software out there were first designed by engineers. Most great technology products -- the automobile, household appliances, etc. -- in their early infancies were designed and created by engineers. The qualities to being a great engineer are also the same qualities to being a great designer. Attention to detail. The ability to understand systems. Technical skills. Craft. The ability to execute a vision. The ability to bring something into the world. > >
> > What's especially ironic is that when we discuss interaction design as a discipline that excludes visual aesthetics like so many on this list in the past have stated, all the qualities of good engineering are precisely the same qualities to being a good interaction designer. Behavior? That's the easiest part for an engineer in the tech world to do! It plays right into their strengths of system design and flow, which is how good code works. It's also why so many engineers in software become "interaction" designers, considering so many in this group insist that visual aesthetics are not part of the job. > >
> > I'm not the one who's ever stated that aesthetics are not part of the job, and I've been boo'ed for saying things like interaction designers need to learn how to draw. Given that there are some who have attempted to keep visual craft out of this job description, don't get upset when you've laid the path for other technical skills to creep in, like the exact skills a person who can handle behavior and interaction and who also knows how to code becomes more of the job requests that you see. > >
> > "Your best designers 'will never be excited' about reviewing Java code." > >
> > If you help design software or anything that is constructed from code and this is your attitude, you have picked the wrong profession, pure and simple. God help the employer that hires a designer to work on their software but who loathes code and everything to do with it. That's like wanting to be a surgeon but you can't be bothered with all the messy human stuff, like urine, feces and blood. The horror! > > "Designers are people persons...out to please, not to make things logical. Emotions and logic are way apart." > >
> > More bullshit. No words to even describe how inaccurate this statement is. Sidenote: I used to know a guy who always said being organized (read: logical and systematic) obstructed the creative process. In my experience, being organized and systemic allows me to focus all my energy on the creative tasks at hand instead of menial ones like trying to find which meeting I have to be at next or what deadline I'm supposed to hit this week. Emotion and logic are not mutually exclusive modes of operation. This is not the fictional Star Trek universe. > > "Designers like money, but passion is prime, pleasure the objective." > >
> > Again, why is this couched as some sort of mutually exclusive option? I'm passionate and I like making money. > > "Programmers like results, designers like smiles (bank machine/ATM example)" > >
> > Borderline offensive. I've worked with many a programmer who prefer the results that make the people who use their products smile. If you haven't, consider that your attitude might be leading you to work with people of a similar bent, if one the other side of a soiled coin. > > "Designers hate being asked to apply for or changing their resumes/profile to include programming." > >
> > I don't hate it at all. In fact, it's how I get the edge over designers who still believe that being an interaction designer only entails drawing wireframes and telling other people what to draw or code. Good luck with that skill set in five years. Further, I enjoy the technical side of this job just as much as the aesthetic side or the people side, and when I get a chance to dive into code or build a prototype, I do it with gusto. > > "Programmers dread being asked to show examples of class designs." > >
> > More bullshit. The ones I hang around with actually want to do more front-end work, care deeply about the design of the product, and would like to find more ways to contribute to the design, not less. I just got into a heated debate not a few weeks ago with such programmers who wanted to get involved more earlier with the design process so they could do exactly this. It's my job to make sure I can find more ways to include them. > > "Know the difference between the two…please" > >
> > Please take you're own advice here. > >
> > There, I said it. Seriously, IxDA and all the members of this organization. If you want to be taken seriously, this sort of post is not the way to do so and it has to stop. More of you need to push back on this sort of thinking when others in this group state it. More of you need to get your head above the treeline and see just where it's all going in the next decade. More of you need to stop fighting against what you don't want to do and admit that this job is maturing and the skills needed to do it at the professional level are growing. And if you don't want to sign up for knowing more, learning more, doing more, that's fine. There are plenty of other jobs out in the world that are satisfying as well. > >
> > But this job… This job in this field requires more. More of you need to demand more of yourselves and you need to stretch your boundaries. And you need to learn to enjoy it while its happening. Why? Because the true reward in this design job is that you'll spend your entire life learning and growing and doing more, and when you're time comes to pass, you'll be able to say, "Damn that was a ride! I'd love to go again." > > (((P

11 Aug 2010 - 12:45am
bojcampbell
2010

If the engineer is taking the time before the sprints to do Interaction Design then I see no reason why he/she can't be the best Interaction Designer in the world. In my world, however, that particular engineer is writing code for an earlier sprint or a different product completely. If a role is offered to write code half the time and do user testing and Interaction Design the other half, I see no reason why an engineer (code monkey) can't do both on the highest level. In fact, if I spend too much time on either side of my brain I feel unbalanced.

While some companies have the liberty to really decompose the job of Interaction Designer into an extremely specific and specialized role, it is my assumption (with some humble experience mixed in) that most still need their Designer to cover a more broad spectrum of responsibilities with the goal of breaking those down in the future.

I think we also have to be careful about throwing the term "engineer" around too liberally since it such an extremely broad term like "designer." I absolutely love doing UI Design and Interaction Design. At some point of over-specialization a job becomes mundane. Where that point is is most likely a personal preference and relates directly to job satisfaction. A whole new can of worms.

11 Aug 2010 - 5:05am
kbhaumik
2010

I simply love this the way it is conveyed!!! Thanks Maurice!!!!
CheersKaushik

On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 5:20 AM, Maurice Carty <mo_vibes@hotmail.com> wrote:

OK...Here we go again.

Another rant about job expectations and recruiters post requirements.

Let it be known. I have over a decade in the field. Much experience, many projects, large clients, many roles, many offers.
Why?, I specialize.

Ask me what I do and I will reply. "I am not a programmer. I am an Interface Designer for software applications."

For recruiters:
- JQuery was introduced in 2006 so don't ask for 10 yrs experience in JQuery
- The best programmer "will never be" your best designer
- Your best designer "will never be excited" about reviewing code
- Designers are people persons...out to please, not to make things logical. Emotions and logic are way apart.
- Designers like money, but passion is prime
- Programmers like results, designers like smiles (bank machine/ATM example)
- Designers hate being asked to apply for or changing their resumes/profile to include programming
- Programmer dread being asked to show examples of class designs
- Know the difference between the two...please
- You wouldn't ask your plumber to pull your teeth, so don't ask a designer to code your 2010 API with J2EE
- Realize the designers hate this!

AIs, UXDs, GUIs:
- Say "F-IT!" to them who take no insight to their requirement listing before they post jobs that promise the rainbow
- Spam, slander, screem, shout, blog, post to make your title clear (designer, not programmer, but understand the process)
- Ignore recruiter who don't take the time to do their research before they ask you to give up what you have for greener opps.
- NEVER change your portfolio for ANY recruiter (you are what you do! don't sell out)
- Realize that most employers don't understand your experience boundaries and rely on recruiters to fill the void
- DO NOT BECOME a designer/programmer/developer (design if you design, code if you code)
- Remember this: "We are all more productive if we specialize in one thing rather than try to excel at many things" - Socrates
- Review for your self what the "average" expectations are (need to, good to know, know what it is, not interested)
- Tell you're circles, collegues and groups, we have them....we will eventually need them
- Try to get gis/jobs through your circle, collegues and groups
- Send praise to the recuiter that follow the rules and respect you time and experince (genre)

Praises, slaps, slanders and comments are more than welcome.

Thanks for letting me rant IxDA!!!!.
I LOVE THIS PLACE.

11 Aug 2010 - 7:58am
mschraad
2010

It's as much our responsibility to recognize, in a job description, what is being asked. If you don't match it - simply don't apply. If you don't know how to ask the right questions (and you should be interviewing the person doing the hiring) then you will have a really hard time positioning yourself for success.

Small shops need the omni person... the person that can wear many hats. Larger ones will logically be looking for specialist. The magic... the situation where people that do best, is when they understand a lot about those tasks they overlap and integrate with but are not directly responsible for. Knowing how to do YOUR job is table stakes. Understanding the job of those around will make or break you success in seeing great work through to completion.

Andrei - I agree with you that ix and IA's need to know how to draw. But I think everyone should know how to draw. Not for it's tactical purpose... but because visual thinking is a critical strategic life skill. Understanding relationships in 2 and 3 dimensions can bring great understanding of abstract concepts.

11 Aug 2010 - 11:06am
Austin Cornelio
2008

Total bullshit. The original post proves nothing but closed minded, over-reactional thinking. If this person is such an "expert" and has so much "experience" as a professional in this field then you certainly would not let this sort of recruiter get under your skin because you WOULD NOT NEED TO.

This part is horrible advice (and just plain ignorant as a whole) -- "don't become a designer/developer/programmer" Just because technology might threaten you does not mean it should be shunned. People who truly understand design and technology together can achieve great success, and I believe have the upper hand. Not saying that everyone should (or can) achieve this, but why not reach for the stars and become great at both if you have the ability? The worst part about this statement is its message of closed mindedness and lack of forward thinking. What happens if you are in the position to and want to start your own venture one day? Having a well rounded skill set will greatly improve your chances of startup success.

"Programmers like results, designers like smiles (bank machine/ATM example)" HA! Really? Everyone likes results. Again, it seems like you're a bit unfulfilled in this category. 

"Designers hate being asked to apply for or changing their resumes/profile to include programming" Maybe, if you're lazy and don't posses the skills. I was asked once, I did it because I could. I landed the contracting job and increased my monthly income by a substantial amount.

I really think posts like this are poison and spread one persons personal frustrations to a community of people who mostly want a positive, influential place to talk about the industry they love.

11 Aug 2010 - 12:05pm
Debashish Paul
2008

Austin, I couldn't agree with you more on this.

I don't want to comment on anybody's 'personal' views but, since this is a public forum and I know a lot of young people who follow it to get inspiration and learning. I would request to post responsibly so that such people don't develop a false understanding about this domain / profession / industry.

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Austin Cornelio <austin@briomedia.net> wrote:

Total bullshit. The original post proves nothing but closed minded, over-reactional thinking. If this person is such an "expert" and has so much "experience" as a professional in this field then you certainly would not let this sort of recruiter get under your skin because you WOULD NOT NEED TO.

This part is horrible advice (and just plain ignorant as a whole) -- "don't become a designer/developer/programmer" Just because technology might threaten you does not mean it should be shunned. People who truly understand design and technology together can achieve great success, and I believe have the upper hand. Not saying that everyone should (or can) achieve this, but why not reach for the stars and become great at both if you have the ability? The worst part about this statement is its message of closed mindedness and lack of forward thinking. What happens if you are in the position to and want to start your own venture one day? Having a well rounded skill set will greatly improve your chances of startup success.

"Programmers like results, designers like smiles (bank machine/ATM example)" HA! Really? Everyone likes results. Again, it seems like you're a bit unfulfilled in this category. 

"Designers hate being asked to apply for or changing their resumes/profile to include programming" Maybe, if you're lazy and don't posses the skills. I was asked once, I did it because I could. I landed the contracting job and increased my monthly income by a substantial amount.

I really think posts like this are poison and spread one persons personal frustrations to a community of people who mostly want a positive, influential place to talk about the industry they love.

(
11 Aug 2010 - 4:06pm
david.shaw6@gma...
2004

Ok, I've been keeping my mouth shut for quite a while, but I think I need to chime in here on this. As someone who has spend the last 16+ years doing this role in one form or another, I've seen the field go from an after thought to a much more strategic piece of the product pie.  As this has happened, I've also seen the skills one would use and apply change too. For our future to stay competitive and in-demand we must increase our skill set beyond just wireframes and sketching (or the narrow definition of design).  Look what has happened to the field of Industrial design. Access to the basic skills and tools, and talent, have lowered the barrier to entry. A lot of it is now shifting to other countries (specifically China and India).  If we as a profession want to stay in demand, be ahead of the curve, AND be a valuable asset to a company, we're going to have to move out of our comfort zone and bring something different to the table that nobody else does.  If this means understanding code so that we can "speak the language" of others, then that's what I'm going to do.  The way I see it, is that we are increasingly becoming "translaters" in addition to "designers".
Just my $.02,David



On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Austin Cornelio <austin@briomedia.net> wrote:

Total bullshit. The original post proves nothing but closed minded, over-reactional thinking. If this person is such an "expert" and has so much "experience" as a professional in this field then you certainly would not let this sort of recruiter get under your skin because you WOULD NOT NEED TO.

This part is horrible advice (and just plain ignorant as a whole) -- "don't become a designer/developer/programmer" Just because technology might threaten you does not mean it should be shunned. People who truly understand design and technology together can achieve great success, and I believe have the upper hand. Not saying that everyone should (or can) achieve this, but why not reach for the stars and become great at both if you have the ability? The worst part about this statement is its message of closed mindedness and lack of forward thinking. What happens if you are in the position to and want to start your own venture one day? Having a well rounded skill set will greatly improve your chances of startup success.

"Programmers like results, designers like smiles (bank machine/ATM example)" HA! Really? Everyone likes results. Again, it seems like you're a bit unfulfilled in this category. 

"Designers hate being asked to apply for or changing their resumes/profile to include programming" Maybe, if you're lazy and don't posses the skills. I was asked once, I did it because I could. I landed the contracting job and increased my monthly income by a substantial amount.

I really think posts like this are poison and spread one persons personal frustrations to a community of people who mostly want a positive, influential place to talk about the industry they love.

(((Ple
11 Aug 2010 - 11:20am
Dave Malouf
2005

A few thought regarding this thread.

I think both Maurice and Andre are both right.

Maurice is right to the extent that recruiters for the most part have no idea of the types of roles they are trying to hire for and don't understand what it is we do.

Andre is right b/c well Maurice's generalizations and truisms are just absurd.

I will counter Andre's view though to say that his view of a world 5 years from now is close to the one he spouted would be true 5 years ago and it isn't. Yes! I agree that making stuff and visualizing it with strong craft is the best way to go. But I do have tos ay that way too many of us are still practicing where there is a strong separation between what I'll call architecture, design, and development. The biggest agencies and consultancies are set up this way and job descriptions by the 100's if not thousands are still written this way. Yes, there are many that are swiss-army knives and those are OK for sure, but there is still a strong need for the specialist IxD who can collaborate and cooperate with both visual designers and ui developers. In some circles the job of researcher is even separated from the IxD or other design roles as well and many mof us can really put our hat on teh research pole and be quite happy there too.

I find our community of practice to be more than fragmented. we are spread like sand. The permutations for how we practice is as great if not greater than our similarities.

I will say this ... I would rather have an IxD who is visually inclined, but not technically inclined over an IxD who is technical and not visual. Just sayin' ... If I had to choose that's the way I'd go. A designer who is not visual is barely a designer. I'd even call out a sound designer who does not have some grasp of visual language and craft.

-- dave

11 Aug 2010 - 12:38pm
wraevn
2010

All I have to say, Heinlein already said:

 

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein

 

12 Aug 2010 - 12:06am
Scott McDaniel
2007

But it is unreasonable to expect anyone to be the best at all of them.
Then again, I consider even individual, rantish behaviors of people on an industry list to be a datapoint on the user groups,

even where I disagree, and consider it subprofessional to call it bullshit.
YMMV.
Love,Scott
On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 7:16 PM, wraevn <brandonebward@gmail.com> wrote:

All I have to say, Heinlein already said:

 

/A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects./ - Robert A. Heinlein
 

((
11 Aug 2010 - 1:17pm
David Snyder
2009

I was sitting around a table with a bunch of developers at a meet up, and when I mentioned I was a designer, he said he was looking to hire a UI guy. Right off the bat he started talking about code, and I mentioned that (in not so few words) that I wasn't really a coder.

"Oh, " he replied. "That doesn't work for me. I need somebody who can be useful"

So, for me, that's where the gut reaction to those designer/programmer job posts comes from. They want a programmer, and they don't have a culture that values design, nor do they think that design is a particularly involved, complicated or difficult discipline. So, I totally emphasize with Maurice's position because it sucks to not have what you do be valued. I am more than willing to concede that there are cases where you need somebody who can do both, especially on small teams. But this employer didn't say to me "I have a small team so I need somebody who can produce great code and great designs" he said, essentially, that designers–and by extension design–isn't useful; isn't valued.

It's on you as the designer to feel out job postings that are written like that. Regardless of how awesome and comprehensive my skill set may or may not be, I don't want to work at a company where design isn't valued. Kudos to Andrei who values both.

Where I agree with Andrei 100% is that the original poster's attitude (and it was flagged as a rant and written as such, and I've had my own rants on that topic) is pretty wrongheaded. As a human being, I like to think I'm pretty much constantly pushing out at the edges of my knowledge to try and grasp a little more than what I already know. And constantly hammering away that designers are the only guys face of the earth are who really "understand people" is, as Andrei put it "borderline offensive" The reality is that every team is going to 

For "most of us" (or at least those of us doing web sites/web apps and software that sits on general purpose hardware) at least some working knowledge of code and visual design is staggeringly valuable. When I encounter a web app designer who really doesn't give a damn about HTML and CSS or Typography it throws up a red flag. I've met designers who can't explain *why* basic changes to the HTML spec have been made and interface guys who throw 5-6 typefaces up on a screen without thinking and it really makes you question what they think their job is, exactly. Moreover, it makes you question if they're really motivated and excited by their field.

Even if all you do is draw boxes and arrows, adopting a "that's all I do" mindset is poisonous to your career development. My suspicion is that isn't actually Maurice's view, although that's the attitude I took away from the post.

There's a lot more going on with this discussion in terms of why somebody should specialize or generalize. Given that there are a fixed number of hours in the day, and given that in many corporate environments designers spend more time in meetings than actually designing, there are strong arguments for specializing. But that's probably a separate topic altogether.

11 Aug 2010 - 1:34pm
Andrei Herasimchuk
2004

"I will counter Andre's [sic] view though to say that his view of a world 5 years from now is close to the one he spouted would be true 5 years ago and it isn't."

I've already forgotten what I said it would be five years ago to this day, but I think it had something to do with interaction designers needing to know more graphic design skills, which as near as I can tell -- being a guy who's in charge of shaping what the design team needs to look like and be able to do at a large tech company -- that is indeed happening, even if we're not fully there yet. Most tech startups and now many of the larger tech companies are requiring more out of their designers than silo'd specialities.

I'm seeing more and more companies prototyping these days as well, which inherently requires coding of the most basic sort. So that too is starting to come to pass, and it points to a future where designers in the tech industry will need to have far more skills than what they have today. 

If you are in this field and you don't like code, don't want to learn how to code, whatever reason you give that might have been similar to the reasons you might have given a few years ago about learning how to draw or engage in graphic design activities, I'm suggesting you've picked the wrong career, because that's where it's going.

And if you work at a place like Facebook, being a designer means you are also expected to know how to build the front-end, so the folks over there are already well on their way down this path. I'm in the midst of refocusing and retraining my team here at Yahoo towards the same direction. I know many others that are in charge of the large tech companies and startups who are all starting to do the same thing.

11 Aug 2010 - 10:06pm
bminihan
2007

Okay, here's my take...

Please avoid reading too much into a company's design philosophy based
on a job description.

I know that a lot of psychological angst goes into reading job
descriptions that comes across your desk, particularly when you're out
of work, or you're unhappy with your job and looking for something new.

I've been there, believe me, as a developer, a manager and designer.
The situation feels the same in all three roles, and I empathize.

However, I've had to make that tough call to hire for the position I
NEED to fill, rather than the one I really WANT. When given very
limited funds, and multiple critical needs, I've had to make the most
with every penny I can spare.

This applies equally to big companies and start-ups. I've been with
both and encountered the same budget constraints, regardless of the
organization's commitment to sound design ethics. (Caveat: I've no
experience with agencies or design consultancies, so these may really
be the right place for you).

While I rarely have a big enough budget for a full design, research,
front and back-end development team, and typically do the IxD work
myself if I can't afford what I need - just don't hold that against me
and assume I don't appreciate design.

I'm just saying that if you applied the same critical generalizations
used for job posts to, say, a company's home page, then we should all
believe that BP is the most environmentally friendly company on the
planet.

If you're vehemently against coding, or ever learning how, and you're
passionate about pure graphic design, user research or other aspects
of our industry - great - go after those positions that fit your
bill. If you're a generalist (like myself), you'd probably be bored
if you can't affect the entire strategy, design, development, and
delivery process, and will go for those positions looking for a mix of
talent.

As the IxD industry matures, I'm seeing MORE room for folks of varying
specialties and disciplines, not LESS. I would strongly suggest (to
keep all possible doors open as long as possible) to just skip those
positions you don't like, and go after those you do.

Bryan

> >

13 Aug 2010 - 7:03pm
Dave Malouf
2005
Andre, for every place that u can mention where GD & coding is required of an IxD I can mention 1 where it isn't. I agree w/ u that it is best to have those skills as an IxD, but I do disagree that you have to have them now or will in 5yrs. I think that there are comma its of practice or types of work environments that will remain resistant to these extended requirements even as others strongly reinforce them. - Dave
18 Aug 2010 - 10:39am
mdostert
2010

I find what most people have said to be illuminating and true even if contradictory in many instances. It seems context, discourse community, background, and experience are the commonalities that influence these perceptions. We all bring different experiences to the discussion board. howeveer, I would like to see more tolerance of peoples' opinions.

I have seen a wide range of requirments for experience and education for many of the desinger jobs. Some want cs degrees and others want hci degrees. Some want cs degrees and say the hci is easy to learn. others want the pysch degrees. I give up.

I would like to know what you all suggest the main programming tools one should know other than html, xhtml, css, and Adobe products...

Thanks.

18 Aug 2010 - 12:05am
Bruce Melendy
2009

I'm a bit ... stupefied at the personal, hostile nature of some of the retractors' comments. It's hypocritical at best to say 'bullshit and borderline offensive': seems to me that 'bullshit' is well over the border.

I disagree with a lot of what Maurice said. While I agree that specialists should resist pressure to be cross-functional when it suits them and their circumstances, I don't have much use for sweeping and ultimately empty generalizations such as 'emotions and logic are way apart', as if no one ever managed to combine these in a single creation. I would point to musical composers and physicists as just two of many examples one could trot out to make short work of demolishing that.

I actually do requirements for a living, though I frequently do UI design and have for nearly 15 years. I gave up trying to be a serious coder almost that long ago, though I know just enough HTML and SQL to get by - but you don't want me coding your website or your stored procedures (I've forgotten what little Coldfusion I knew). That was a personal choice: I don't hate coding, just realized I didn't have the discipline to be good at it, requirements and UI design, and I preferred the latter two - both in terms of being fulfilling and of being less likely to be off-shored.

I would very much appreciate if you would voice your disagreement with respect and collegiality.

Oh and the second-person possessive is your, not you're.

Cheers,

Bruce

18 Aug 2010 - 10:43am
mdostert
2010

Bruce, I am interested in the requirments gathering and the UI. Could you offer advise on how to get those sorts of jobs? I am good at interviewing, an amazing writer, and ui interaction and visual designer.  I even have an MSIS! :)

18 Aug 2010 - 1:51pm
socialamigo
2010

sorry Andrei

I'm not sure I'm on board with this metaphor:  God help the employer that hires a designer to work on their software but who loathes code and everything to do with it. That's like wanting to be a surgeon but you can't be bothered with all the messy human stuff...

For me, surgeons = messy human stuff, probably why I'm not one. I'm not sure designers = surgeons. The metaphor would be better if you'd referenced developers who loathe code, but then that wouldn't make any sense. But for me, developers are surgeons - I'm not sure I can find a meaningful place for designers as a medical metaphor.

This is also problematic too:  If you are in this field and you don't like code, don't want to learn how to code, whatever reason you give..., I'm suggesting you've picked the wrong career, because that's where it's going...

As a business owner, a client, and as a creative director/content strategist, I'd much rather hire the designer who knows their limits, has extraordinary talents for what they do, and if that is designing/concepting/typography and industry standards and trends - and they get what I'm trying to lay down - then so be it. I'd rather partition off the development/programming aspects of it. In my experience, it's a long educational journey from laying down a bit of CSS3 to driving data to a shopping cart with static URLs. I may only be speaking for myself here, but there is also the efficiency of work and redundancy of effort when designers try to do too much and the work (billable hours) only need to be redistributed to the development team anyway.

Perhaps you can clarify for me where those lines in the sand are, especially if they are changing, now or in the future. How do you/how are you repurposing your design teams - workshops? classes? secondary education? in-house projects in small groups? This would be important information for team building and I'd like your expertise/perspective. Thanks in advance.

socialamigo

21 Aug 2010 - 1:11pm
Ania Powers
2010

Few months ago there was a discussion here about what is actually considered as "design skills" etc. If this thing is not clear and "design" is defined different way by various members of the group, how can they determine whether it is easy to transition form coder to designer and vice versa?

Regarding recruiter's requirements: even if there is such a hybrid who is a top-notch designer and coder, this person simply won't have time to do both things at the same time, unless deadline is significantly extended.

21 Aug 2010 - 3:22pm
RichExperiences
2010

 

            Design IS Engineering and Engineering IS Design.

 

 

 

22 Aug 2010 - 7:47pm
Dave Malouf
2005

find me an engineering program that requires art history or a foundation of arts curriculum and then maybe I would agree.

Both create, yes, but the way they go about it is so fundamentally different from methods to critique.

Design has always been in a symbiotic relationship with engineering.

Architecture to Civil Engineering
Industrial Design to Mechanical Engineering
Visual Design to Print making (engineering of papers and inks)
Interactive Design to EECS

But the reality is that it is symbiotic and not the same. 

-- dave

24 Aug 2010 - 11:42am
Micah Freedman
2008

Does this count? :-)

http://www-design.stanford.edu/PD/bigpicture.html

23 Aug 2010 - 8:50am
Ania Powers
2010

Design IS Engineering and Engineering IS Design.

No. In general, designing any process/thing/whatever, requires a bunch of answers for two questions: "how?" and "why?"

Engineer must be able to answer all the "hows", while designer needs to be able to answer all the "whys" (including "why we are even bothering doing this?"

Designer should be aware of "hows", but it's not his role to find the best answers and solutions. (the same with engineer, but with "why" question).

 

I'll use the example: you have to make a red button for an aircraft, so the pilot can push it and release a bomb to blow some city below.

If you are an engineer, you just make the thing work.

If you are the designer, your responsibility is to make a decision, whether it should be a comfortable, inviting device, or rather a sharp nail upside down.

23 Aug 2010 - 11:05am
bkillam
2010
If you are an engineer, you just make the thing work.

As an engineer myself, I can assure you that this is not the correct definition.  That's the developer or implementer, not the engineer.  An old colleague of mine, an electrical engineer, was once asked "Can you fix my TV?"  He replied: "No, but I can design you a new one."
Formal definitions:  
engineer: "a person who designs, builds, or maintains...."

Designer - "a person who plans the form, look, or workings of something before its being made or built, typically by drawing it in detail  
Bill---------------------------------------------------Bill Killam, MA CHFP/CUXPPresident, User-Centered Design, Inc.20548 Deerwatch PlaceAshburn, VA 20147703-729-0998 (Office)703-626-6318 (Mobile)http://www.user-centereddesign.com

23 Aug 2010 - 10:44pm
Ania Powers
2010

An old colleague of mine, an electrical engineer, was once asked "Can you fix my TV?"  He replied: "No, but I can design you a new one."
Formal definitions:  
engineer: "a person who designs, builds, or maintains...."

So, as you see, according to your formal definition, this engineer should be able either to design or  to fix this TV ("builds or maintans...") :)

Designer - "a person who plans the form, look, or workings of something before its being made or built, typically by drawing it in detail "

I'd say this is only a part of designer's job.

The whole point is, in order to "plan th form, look or workings of something" there must be an idea of what it will be and what kind of purpose it serves. Getting this idea together and finding the best way to serve this purpose is the designer's job.

In other words: before engineer/programmer/coder builds The Best Shopping Cart For Online Store Ever, first someone needs to come up with the idea of doing shopping this way and building online platform for it. This is the designer's job. And, of course, the next step for him/her is, like you said, to "plan the form, look, workings" etc.

Of course, in daily live nobody invents a wheel every day, but it's about the right approach. The designer shouldn't worry whether "interface of this application should be rather more green", but "does this appplication help the best way to achieve its users what they need?"

24 Aug 2010 - 11:47am
Micah Freedman
2008

 

In other words: before engineer/programmer/coder builds The Best Shopping Cart For Online Store Ever, first someone needs to come up with the idea of doing shopping this way and building online platform for it. This is the designer's job. And, of course, the next step for him/her is, like you said, to "plan the form, look, workings" etc.

 

Actually, in my experience, that's just as often done by the "product people", i.e. "business". But of course, it's fluid and to the extent that those people are thinking about "how it should work and why", they're doing design.
24 Aug 2010 - 2:21pm
Ania Powers
2010

Actually, in my experience, that's just as often done by the "product people"

Who are the "product people" and what is their role/skills/responsibility?

 

24 Aug 2010 - 3:03pm
Nancy Roberts
2008

I think it's often really good salespeople who pay attention to the problems their customers have, and then bring those back to the team to discuss and work around. They're the ones out there in the field seeing what their customers are going through day to day.

24 Aug 2010 - 8:35pm
Ania Powers
2010

I think it's often really good salespeople who pay attention to the problems their customers have

Would't it be wonderful? But people simply have no clue what they need or want, UNLESS it already exists (which means, someone already designed it).

Hundred years ago nobody would tell good salesperson "dude, I have serious problem with a cellulite".

In fact, good salespeople make people believing they are lacking something (i. e. anti-cellulite potion), not because they believe these people need it, but because they were paid to sell this particular thing. You are absolutely right that a good salesperson would do an awesome job if (s)he could identify the problem customers have, but to find a solution is not a salesperson's job. It's a designer's job.

Just try to answer simple question: if, out of nowhere, someone gave you a magic wand and said: create with it one thing, which will make your life better, under one condition: it doesn't exist* yet and nobody heard about it yet, 99,99999 of population will have a huge problem. The remaining promile will make big bucks, though :)


*) or simply an idea of a new iPhone app which people will find helpful

24 Aug 2010 - 10:06pm
bkillam
2010


An old colleague of mine, an electrical engineer, was once asked "Can
you fix my TV?"  He replied: "No, but I can design you a new one."
Formal definitions:  
engineer: "a person who designs, builds, or maintains...."

So, as you see, according to your formal definition, this engineer should be able either to design or  to fix this TV ("builds or maintans...") :)

First, its not my definition.  Second, it the definition says design, builds, OR maintains, not designs, builds, AND maintains.  It depends on the type of engineer what they design, build, OR maintain. 

Designer - "a person who plans the form, look, or workings of something
before its being made or built, typically by drawing it in detail "

I'd say this is only a part of designer's job.

I'll bite.  What's the rest?  

The whole point is, in order to "plan th form, look or workings of something" there must be an idea of /what it will be and what kind of purpose it serves/. Getting this idea together and finding the best way/ to serve this purpose/ is the designer's job.

Or the engineers job. 


Of course, in daily live nobody invents a wheel every day, but it's about the right approach. The designer shouldn't worry whether "interface of this application should be rather more green", but "does this appplication help the best way to achieve its users what they need?"


Huh?  I think you're talking about the role of a software/web interaction designer only.  (Or maybe industrial design.)  Visual design is certainly  part of design.  That's what visual designers and  graphic artists do.  

23 Aug 2010 - 3:05pm
mdostert
2010

If you are a designer, you probably came up with the idea that the button needed to be red!

----- Original Message ---- From: Ania Powers To: mdostert2002@yahoo.com Sent: Mon, August 23, 2010 11:02:13 AM Subject: Re: [IxDA] Another Rant - Expectations and Roles - Designers vs. Developers vs. Recruiters...blah, blah, blah

> Design IS Engineering and Engineering IS Design. > No. In general, designing any process/thing/whatever, requires a bunch of answers for two questions: "how?" and "why?"

Engineer must be able to answer all the "hows", while designer needs to be able to answer all the "whys" (including "why we are even bothering doing this?"

Designer should be aware of "hows", but it's not his role to find the best answers and solutions. (the same with engineer, but with "why" question).

I'll use the example: you have to make a red button for an aircraft, so the pilot can push it and release a bomb to blow some city below.

If you are an engineer, you just make the thing work.

If you are the designer, your responsibility is to make a decision, whether it should be a comfortable, inviting device, or rather a sharp nail upside down.

24 Aug 2010 - 7:23am
Nancy Roberts
2008

This is quite a heated discussion... but I know we all run into the same issues on the job all the time, so we've developed our opinions through experience.

When I was running the video department in a corporation, I was asked to defend our department's existence. I gathered all the numbers, and then told them that whether they kept the inside department or went with external vendors, it was going to cost roughly the same, the real questions they had to ask were: were they going to continue to do video and were they happy with the video department they had?If yes to both, do nothing, If no to one or both, make a change.

So I think the real issue is: what are the skills, interests and best use of each of the people on your team? f you've got the usability angle covered, by the designer, the developer, or some other team member, then it probably doesn't matter which discipline handles that angle of the project, what really matters is: is someone on your team advocating for the user, making sure the product functions in a way that can be understood and does the job the user expects? If not, you've got a problem.

THe other time you've got a problem is when *everybody* wants that aspect of the project, and the team members disagree about what constitutes "usable." That's a little tougher to deal with, and the only way around that one, in my experience, is for the manager to assign that responsiblity to someone from the outset, or to hire a dedicated employee and make it clear to the others.

 

Syndicate content Get the feed